Trans Park Run Deletion

The FA have never given a fuck about women and girls so is this a surprise?

Women's football:
"Although its first golden age occurred in the United Kingdom in the early 1920s, when one match achieved over 50,000 spectators, The Football Association initiated a ban in 1921 that disallowed women's football games from the grounds used by its member clubs. The ban stayed in effect until July 1971"

Long time ago but we all know that football is "for men" don't we?

In this case, they want the men's team to be men and then the other team to be the non men ie also men really but not the A-men. Women should be making the tea and sandwiches for 1/2 time.

As the FA was mentioned on previous page, it may be of interest to read the FA response to Mayday4Women's leaflets distributed at last week's women's cup final:
www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11364342/fa-condemns-anti-transgender-flyers-outside-wembley-at-womens-fa-cup-final
There is a website due to launch soon mayday4women.com

Glad it was brought up at an early stage, NatLuc - I was quite shocked by the other thread.

Adoption is no walk in the park, according to various friends, but I hope things pan out for you in future.

LangCleg A friend of mine had a stroke, she was too young to claim Attendance Allowance so claimed PIP. She had to apply which is an ordeal on it's own, then have a medical. She was denied PIP so had to to appeal (I can't remember what the actual appeal things is called). That was also refused so she had to go to a tribunal. This is a woman who can barely stand, do little for herself and is now a shadow of the woman she was. It's heartbreaking to see. I can't even phone her now as she can't speak clearly any more. She did win in the end, it took around a year I think and she is now on antidepressants as well as all her other problems. It's shameful.

@MargeH - Thank you for understanding. Losing someone who was my rock for 3 years but also the only reason I wasn't transitioning (because I wanted to fight it off and stay who I was for her - didn't work, unfortunately) has honestly been the only 'price' I have had to pay that I was unable to be okay with.

@Lancelottie - It is okay, happy to answer. Have you seen the film 'Hook'? Wendy, when she has that recognition meal from the orphans she helped.. Even when I was young I knew I would like to do something like that and give a second chance to those who were cast out. Not for recognition, it was just such an emotive scene for me growing up, that she had helped all those people. Personally, I think this planet has enough mouths to feed and I would prefer to help those already here. So I waived any options to have sperm frozen, it was brought up at my first GIC consultation and I straight up said it wasn't something I wanted to do so maybe I am not the best person to talk about the specifics of availability.

DS won't do the forms to claim PIP, LangCleg, as he finds they send him into a bitter spiral of depression. The bloody forms for his school statement used to have that effect on me too. All that concentrating on what was wrong instead of everything he could do well.

I can imagine. Huge, huge sympathies and solidarity with your DS. From food bank volunteering, I know very well that it's not just personal humiliation either - it can send people into penury. I think the ESA and PIP processes amount to state-sanctioned abuse of ill and disabled people. And there are a lot of people caught up in it. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands.

Another reason I bridle at the me me me, only my oppression counts attitude taken by extremist transactivists.

Woman's Place UK

This is a campaign formed specifically to ensure women’s voices are heard in the debate around proposals to change the Gender Recognition Act (2004).

We have 5 fair and reasonable demands to ensure that this happens.

We have produced some resources to help you be part of the campaign.

We are organising public meetings all over the UK.

We are talking to as many people as we can.

We believe that respectful dialogue is vital if we are to achieve a progressive law which upholds the rights of everyone.

The five demands:

1. Respectful and evidence-based discussion about the impact of the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act to be allowed to take place and for women’s voices to be heard.
2. The principle of women-only spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended.
3. A review of how the exemptions in the Equality Act which allow or single sex services or requirements that only a woman can apply for a job (such as in a domestic violence refuge) are being applied in practice.
4. Government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women-only services and spaces.
5. Government to consult on how self-declaration will impact upon data gathering – such as crime, employment, pay and health statistics – and monitoring of sex-based discrimination such as the gender pay gap.

videos of speeches given at meetings are available on the website:
womansplaceuk.org

DS won't do the forms to claim PIP, LangCleg, as he finds they send him into a bitter spiral of depression. The bloody forms for his school statement used to have that effect on me too. All that concentrating on what was wrong instead of everything he could do well.

Derail over. I would have thought, naively, that a process emphasizing the ways in which someone considers themselves to fit with/identify as the opposite sex would be affirming, if anything, rather than depressing?

Another small derail: NatLuc, you say you'd like children and you're attracted to women - were you offered the option of freezing sperm? This is probably too personal a question but it's prompted by some posts in another thread where it seems that future fertility is not always fully discussed.

I've got to be honest - it seems a lot less demeaning and humiliating than the process to obtain ESA or PIP. It's not as though it involves an interrogation by the panel - applicants don't even have to attend.

the groups have highlighted the “humiliating” process the current law requires to change the gender on legal documents

Is it humiliating? (NatLuc, do you have experience of this?) I'm thinking that most governmental processes are maddening, slow and intrusive (disability rights come very much to mind), but we grind our teeth and battle through them.

Pink News exclusive:
"In 2017, the former Equalities Minister, Justine Greening, announced plans to review the 2004 law, which allows transgender people to gain recognition by changing their legal documents – but the process has since been delayed multiple times.

This has been partly due to pressure from the right-wing press.

Multiple departures from the ministerial position have also contributed to the confusion.

Mordaunt is now the third Equalities Minister since the announcement of this review — following the departure in April of Amber Rudd — it is currently unclear when the review will begin and how much of a priority it will be.

Reports last year stated that the review would begin in spring 2018, but there has been no further information about the review’s time frame.

In the open letter, the groups have highlighted the “humiliating” process the current law requires to change the gender on legal documents, as well as pointing out that transgender people face discrimination and abuse that remains unchallenged while the government delays the review.

“The longer this delay goes on, the longer abusive invective is allowed to continue unchallenged by a government who rightly pride themselves on robustly speaking up for its minority citizens,” the letter states....." continues
www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/05/07/exclusive-the-government-is-enabling-abuse-by-not-reforming-gender-recognition-groups-tell-new-minister/

link to current thread:www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242812--Amnesty-International-Mermaids-and-Stonewall-have-signed-an-open-letter-to-Penny-Mordaunt-stating-the-importance-of-reforming-the-Gender-Recognition-Act

I think the fundamental problem is that just because someone looks at men, the group, and thinks "that's not me, I don't want to be part of this" that doesn't mean that they're part of group woman.

Acknowledging difference is a good thing. Sometimes it's a sign of respect.

YY.

I think the fundamental problem is that just because someone looks at men, the group, and thinks "that's not me, I don't want to be part of this" that doesn't mean that they're part of group woman. If TIMs asserted themselves as a separate group that's not quite like other men but also not in any way part of group woman then they'd get a lot less pushback from women in general and feminists in particular.

You can't identify into a group of people who mostly don't recognize you as being part of their group. It just doesn't work. It would be like me deciding to identify into my husband's ethnic group (which is not mine) on the basis of, well, I've spent a lot of time around people in that group and I kind of like his family better than most of mine and I'm culturally competent, as sociologists would say. Except that the problem is that everyone can see that I'm not part of that group and so my trying to identify into it would make the people who're actually in that group uncomfortable and irritated. And would likely make them accept me as a friend/coworker/associate of whatever kind less than if I'd just accept that no matter how well we get along we are in fact not part of the same ethnic or cultural group.

Acknowledging difference is a good thing. Sometimes it's a sign of respect.

"If I don't actively tell the world who I am, then people will keep telling me I'm someone I'm not."

Surely you know that this is not a common problem.

Could that be because you are telling them you are A, while they can see with their own eyes that you are B? That is, the whole world can see that you are not what you claim to be.

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, far from it, but I think all this talk of "I am who I am" etc can benefit from a bit of objective input.

natluc To me, recovering enough of myself from a relationship I had planned on investing my future in to, to be able to try again is a struggle. I know I’m only 28 but being alone is a genuine fear as a consequence of transitioning. Urgh. I feel like that violin is playing sorry.

I don't hear any violins, natluc. I can hear your anxiety though and I wish you every happiness.

I don't know that the old social bargain between women and transsexuals can be restored at this point. It's not women who broke it, it's TRAs. If at some point we could get the "worship my ladypenis" nutcases out of the picture then maybe some sort of new arrangement could eventually be made, but as long as people like the Degenderettes are around threatening women and trying to bully us into submission we're going to be at an impasse.

I note the irony of saying this in that if I was to find myself in Thailand again I'd be fine with the old system specifically when it comes to dealing with khathoey, who're the equivalent of our old school transsexuals. I still don't think they're women, but I don't think they're a threat to me either, so we can find ways to live together amicably. Because for the most part they don't hate women and are willing to compromise.

I suppose it all comes back to the old way - when TIM will do their best to fit in and 'behave' like women, the law and women, to a certain extent, treat them like women.

Now TIM want to be visible and want to talk about their experiences and their bodies, and talk about how different they are to women, which is great. I think it's fabulous now TIM are living openly, without the fear of outing themselves. I'm glad TIM are not pressured into stereotypes. But why should women now continue to treat TIM as women when TIM are happy to talk about being male and their differences experiences? Why can TIM talk about their biology and their needs and wants, but women can't?

It would seem that you are legally compelled to behave stereotypically by law, then.

Coming out to family, feminine clothing, and using the women's loo, for two years are the indicators that are often repeated, both by those who decide and those who have gone through the process.

order to attain a GRC we have to be deemed stereotypically ‘feminine ENOUGH’ to be granted one.

I don't think thats the correct interpretation. I think they want someone to demonstrate that they are committed, not someone who can fall back on being a man in certain situations. For example, Jo could be short for Joseph when applying for a job, but short for Josephine at other times.

I do agree with you with regards to clothes, though. Wearing a suit and tie, and sitting with legs apart, wouldn't convince anyone of their desired to be a women. Whereas I could wear and act identically and still be seen as a women. So I do think there is a certain pressure to perform to stereotypes to obtain to GRC.

Good evening everyone,

I hope you’ve all enjoyed the bank holiday sunshine?

Below is my answer to the question @AngryAttackKitten asked me a while ago.

It is a wall of text so I am sorry if it derails the thread again, which is not my intention or annoys anyone.

Question: So if you're going to stick around, Nat, I would like to know what the woman's role is that you believe that trans women are living. What does that role consist of? What are its challenges and its rewards? When you look at the "cis" women around you do they seem to you to be living that same role?

Answer: so I mentioned in one of my comments about ‘living and breathing the role of a woman’. What I meant by this is that to transition and attain a GRC (which ultimately, with GRS, is my intention), I must jump through a lot of hoops. Which are pretty gender stereotyped. And if I’m found lacking then I can be denied. For example:

Oh.. your new name is Jo... well that’s not a very feminine name.. sounds to the review panel that you’re trying to straddle the line.

Obviously that doesn’t apply to me as Lucy is a traditionally feminine name but I I’m trying to say that in order to attain a GRC we have to be deemed stereotypically ‘feminine ENOUGH’ to be granted one. So I mean role in that respect.

However, what role do I live that I feel makes me a woman? Well as many others on the thread have stated.. there isn’t one role or one set of character traits that makes one a woman.. woman aren’t uniform. So quite simply.. I am myself. Since transitioning I have simply stopped forcing the social expectations of being male to be my traits. And it just happens to be that being myself aligns more closely to a great many women. Not trying to say that is why I see myself as a woman, that is a whole other answer to a different question.

I see plenty of challenges in my future, many of them that women have faced, such as the expectations of being attractive, (superficial, I know) this one plays a particularly heavy tune in my mind as I feel as a trans person I will only be accepted if I pass or am attractive. Which is awful. Another is the fear that I’ll never find love again because hetero women are not interested in dating me and neither are most lesbian women (not a criticism on either group) I briefly touched on the fact that I lost my partner in order to transition. To me, recovering enough of myself from a relationship I had planned on investing my future in to, to be able to try again is a struggle. I know I’m only 28 but being alone is a genuine fear as a consequence of transitioning. Urgh. I feel like that violin is playing sorry.

As for rewards? Well for me, the reward is being true to myself. Whether you see me as a trans woman, woman (as a collective term), both or a ‘feminine male’ in a dress, being able to be myself is the reward of ‘living as a woman’.

When I look at other natal women.. in my own age group (25-30) I would say that yes.. I am living that same ‘role’ which is simply living. I mean obviously some have had babies which I can’t do, but I do see myself adopting and fostering once I am more financially settled so irrelevant I guess.

I know that answer is... vague? But I believe that when most trans people speak of ‘living in role’ it is mostly to do with the gender stereotypes we’re expected to adopt in order to satisfy others for access to healthcare or recognition or ‘to be seen to be trying hard enough’.

Also I know the example of appearance is superficial but right now that is a huge concern. But like all people.. struggles and aims and aspirations change over time. It just happens that is my personal ‘challenge’ to overcome at the moment which is to stop caring about how people look at me.

Lucy.

I am not surprised that a transgender advocate found a homophobic organization to be transgender friendly.
Transitioning away the Gays and Lesbians is one of the goals of transgender advocacy.

Well, same-sex attraction has already been condemned as transphobic

And eighty percent of gender nonconforming children who aren't put on blockers become reconciled to their bodies during puberty & grow up gay or lesbian.

But when children are put on blockers, their bodies & brains miss out on the development that could have led them to desist, & instead they almost always move on to cross-sex hormones. Thus growing into adults with the genitals of children, and if they do realise at that point that they've made the wrong choice, it's too late to go back .

But trans organisations like Mermaids and Stonewall say that anything other than enthusiastic affirmation of these children as trans is transphobic.

If anyone wants to tweet this post, go ahead. The further this information is spread the better.

@AngryAttackKittens - Sorry no I haven’t yet, it’s been a pretty crazy week so I’ve not have the chance. I will though.

Are you saying the FA is homophobic?!

No, I'm not. I am not in a position to know.
I am suggesting that transgender advocates rarely recognize homophobia when they see it or practice it.