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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Impact of Online Harassment/Trolling

161 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 28/04/2018 12:11

The impact of unrelenting trolling, whether sealioning/concern trolling/flaming discussions/ weaponising the mod reporting system, is a form of coercive control as it disrupts the free flow of women commenting and thinking. I think we do very well here to contain it. Sometimes it helps to educate others by dismantling/exposing the methods and motives of trolls. I get that. However it's a fine line between that and actually enabling harm when individuals are targeted/mobbed, whether directly on the board or by covert malicious reporting.

Verbal abuse is very harmful and many don't understand it and it's insidious effects in detail. Those who have experienced intimate partner and/or family violence in their history tend to have a lower harm threshold than those who don't.

As an illustration, I have altered the effects of verbal abuse in domestic situations to apply to an online environment:

• Your troll/stalker criticises you and makes you doubt yourself. You might start believing that you’re a not good poster or lucky to have a right to comment at all.
• You feel anxious and stressed in your troll’s presence. You worry about how your online harasser might react and this makes you change your behaviour (like agreeing with them more) to avoid arguments with them.
• You feel intimidated and scared of your online harasser when they get angry — their behaviour might be unpredictable or aggressive. It silences you and forces you to stop commenting.
• You’re made to feel guilty and not given the freedom to say the things you want to say. Your online stalker might control you by telling you what you can and can’t believe, say or think. They may also emotionally blackmail you.

I have described Verbal Abuse at length below in the final part of the post, for those who are interested. Patricia Evan’s book - The Verbally Abusive Relationship - is great. There’s chapter or two where she goes through each of the verbal abuse tactics, what it looks like and so on, plus gives rebuttals. If you’re in an intimate partnership I would go on to read Lundy Bancroft’s “Why Does He Do That?” (as TheBewilderness recommended somewhere else)- the bible for all women in relationships. Both authors have YouTubes and are quoted extensively online, so important are their contributions.

My question is do we need more containment e.g. a code word which, when used, means you are being forced to close down/leave? That you are feeling harmed? Do we need to highlight the trolls more where they are swamping a thread and refusing to go away. What about where modding is weaponised?

I still think better informed modding is the key but that is unlikely to occur soon. I tend to leave if feeling "got at" or the unrelenting gas lighting gets too much. There seems to be enough of us collectively to hold the trolls to account at present and we rely on people self caring by taking time out. Maybe everything is fine. I thought I would check by asking the question.

ABOUT VERBAL ABUSE
Verbal abuse creates emotional pain and mental anguish. It is a lie told to you or about you. Generally, verbal abuse defines people, telling them what they are, what they think, their motives, and so forth. ….Usually one person is blaming, accusing, even name calling, and the other is defending and explaining.

Most people targeted by verbal abuse try to explain to the abuser why what they’ve just heard is not true or not okay. They explain themselves because they believe the perpetrator is rational and can hear them and the relationship will then get better. Then they usually hear more verbal abuse, for instance, “You’re too sensitive.” At that point they don’t usually realize that they have just been defined, and, therefore, verbally abused again.

Since the target of verbal abuse is often blamed, ignored, or yelled at, she may have difficulty recognizing just what is going on in the relationship.

Verbal abuse includes withholding, bullying, defaming, defining, trivializing, harassing, diverting, interrogating, accusing, blaming, blocking, countering, lying, berating, taunting, put downs, abuse disguised as a joke, discounting, threatening, name-calling, yelling and raging.

FRANCE PASSES LAW ON PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE (couldn't find UK stats)
“...the main abuse helpline for women in France received 90,000 calls a year."Of these, 84% concern psychological violence,"..."We have introduced an important measure here, which recognises psychological violence, because it isn't just blows [that hurt] but also words," Nadine Morano, the minister for family affairs, told the lower house of parliament.”

Source: I prefer this old website of hers that has lots of content on it

OP posts:
KittyKlaws · 30/04/2018 09:34

I agree AngryAK the MRAs are dangerous and they annoy me far more but I try to avoid the board when they are there (but I'd rather not do this). They have been around longer than these TRAs who aren't as sophisticated in their posting. It annoys me because the issue of porn and feminism is one I have long been invested in and even written about and they are ALWAYS on those threads with their insincerity, posturing and strawman arguments.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:30

Plus, when MRAs are allowed to piss all over threads about rape or domestic violence I worry about the impact that has on women who're already dealing with related trauma.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:29

The TRA don't really wind me up the same way, in that their basic premises are so absurd that no matter how hard they push most people will never buy it. Societal peak trans is approaching, it's just a matter of trying to minimize the harm to women and children in the meantime and try to prevent changes in law/policy that will be difficult to undo. The more the public hears from TRAs the better, honestly. Sunlight is the best disinfectant and all.

With the MRAs though, they play into very active misogynistic tropes that unfortunately many people do believe, which makes them dangerous.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 09:28

lang

But you'd look awesome in the uniform!!

LangCleg · 30/04/2018 09:28

(So true to Angry, not Kitty being nice to me!)

LangCleg · 30/04/2018 09:27

So true.

KittyKlaws · 30/04/2018 09:26

I know it's not fair. I know it's infuriating. But I just can't be a forum police officer. It would make my time here miserable - and I'd end up leaving of my own volition.

I know what you mean and I for one, would rather you just stayed and responded in your own way. If people like you did leave it would be a win for them.

KittyKlaws · 30/04/2018 09:25

Actually may be different people than the ones you mean. The MRAs are fewer in number than the TRAs but also an ongoing issue, imo

The ones I mean are MRAs rather than TRAs - I'd be interested in who you mean too - if only to avoid them.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:24

Yeah, it's irritating me to be having to think about this stuff too. The problem with pointing out abusive dynamics at the moment is that it just seems to lead to more sealioning, and then the thread becomes about how awful it is that someone pointed out the sealion's shitty behavior.

Cluster B personalities, always fun times to interact with.

LangCleg · 30/04/2018 09:20

The only reason it's concerning me to the point where I'm going all Machiavelli is that I think that a. they're attempting to use the weaknesses in moderation to shut specific people and conversations down in a targeted way and b. it may well work, given how moderation is currently handled.

And it's not as though I don't fear you are right! I do!

I have to keep it bearable for me to come on here though, you know? I hate to make one report, let alone spending forever doing it. I'd just get fed up and go and talk elsewhere, most likely.

What I can do, and what is probably more in the spirit of the thread, is point out abusive dynamics when I see them on here. And not be deterred if I get deleted for doing it. That's much more my style!

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:16

The only reason it's concerning me to the point where I'm going all Machiavelli is that I think that a. they're attempting to use the weaknesses in moderation to shut specific people and conversations down in a targeted way and b. it may well work, given how moderation is currently handled.

LangCleg · 30/04/2018 09:10

I reckon we have to grit our teeth and continue calling out misogyny but accepting that this will be the situation for a while.

While I agree with AAK's frustration, I think I have to agree with this.

I can only be myself. I think people should say what they like. I have no control over the moderation here nor do I want control over it - even if it is uneven or vulnerable to malicious reporting, I hate being forced to spend time thinking about this. I'd rather just say what I want to say - within reason as per guidelines - and leave everyone else to say what they want to say.

I know it's not fair. I know it's infuriating. But I just can't be a forum police officer. It would make my time here miserable - and I'd end up leaving of my own volition.

Sorry!

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:07

Actually may be different people than the ones you mean. The MRAs are fewer in number than the TRAs but also an ongoing issue, imo.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:06

I started to avoid threads about rape or porn because of wanting to avoid getting drawn into a pointless argument with those people, which a. they will then DARVO and b. they're most likely wanking to.

If Talk guidelines were looser I'd engage more directly, but unfortunately they have been designed and are currently being applied in such a way that if a female commenter gets angry enough to tell a male commenter indulging in rape apologism what she thinks of him then it will most likely be her who's censured. Which is kind of the point of this conversation. What do we do about that?

KittyKlaws · 30/04/2018 09:01

I agree this is an important post and the problem is increasing. I haven't been around the last few nights so I haven't seen what has been going on but I have seen it before on these boards.

Well yeah, but the people I was referring to don't do that, and have been here for a while under the same usernames.

I know the people you mean. For one of those people I only have to read a couple of lines to check the username and then I don't read anything else they have written. I made the mistake of replying twice - that was enough. I won't do it again.

It is tempting to just ignore but I know a lot of women here think of the lurkers and what they are seeing. I don't really have the patience and tend to ignore.

It is abuse though - all the disingenuous replies and faux interest in hearing our point of view (when the real point is to dismiss it or to goad), the critiquing of the entire board as transphobic, the incessant reporting of women. I'm fed up of it and I am often tempted to walk away but that is what they want so I guess we keep on. Perhaps skimming past their posts is the answer?

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 08:53

For ages now I've been asking, how many women and children have to be harmed before the more stubborn members of the political and media classes will admit that maybe they made a mistake?

lightthedarkness · 30/04/2018 08:51

I reckon we have to grit our teeth and continue calling out misogyny but accepting that this will be the situation for a while. The rage that women's voices are being heard is immense. The TA's outrage at women demanding safety and privacy for women and children is in the public domain.

There is an increasing public realisation that women's demands are not unreasonable. Whether it is enough to halt the relentless march of this right wing regressive movement I'm not sure. My fear is that it won't be until the lawsuits start that law makers will realise the damage but there is no alternative - koko!

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 08:50

And they've already thrown their own toys out of the pram.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 08:49

apparently we can't have nice things, like a feminist board that's just for feminists

Its like toddlers

They don't actually want the toy...they just dont want you to have it

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 08:49

I suspect that's exactly what's happening. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, etc.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 08:48

I do think that the guidelines can sometimes be very subjective

I would be awful as a mod as i would be

'Oh, well i cant see anything wrong but 12 people have reported this post so maybe its really a big problem'

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 08:47

I don't know, honestly. Wouldn't it be lovely if we could all just talk normally and not worry about how to deal with a sustained attack by people who'd love to shut us down?

Apparently we can't have nice things, like a feminist board that's just for feminists.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 08:44

No youre right...

Yes it would change the pattern

But wouldn't MNHQ threat of 'play nice or we will take it away' not come true?

ill ask...

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 08:41

Like if you look at some of the threads that have been deleted, that happened because TRAs mass reported tons of comments. What if we reported them every time they violate the guidelines too? Would that change the pattern of which threads are allowed to stand?

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 08:40

That does nothing to address the imbalance of reports being sent to MNHQ though. They're trying to use the relatively loose moderation combined with the vague Talk guidelines to pick commenters off, basically. Since the mods only seem to look at threads when something is reported it's pretty easy for TRAs to create a false narrative based on reporting every thing they possibly can.

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