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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Impact of Online Harassment/Trolling

161 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 28/04/2018 12:11

The impact of unrelenting trolling, whether sealioning/concern trolling/flaming discussions/ weaponising the mod reporting system, is a form of coercive control as it disrupts the free flow of women commenting and thinking. I think we do very well here to contain it. Sometimes it helps to educate others by dismantling/exposing the methods and motives of trolls. I get that. However it's a fine line between that and actually enabling harm when individuals are targeted/mobbed, whether directly on the board or by covert malicious reporting.

Verbal abuse is very harmful and many don't understand it and it's insidious effects in detail. Those who have experienced intimate partner and/or family violence in their history tend to have a lower harm threshold than those who don't.

As an illustration, I have altered the effects of verbal abuse in domestic situations to apply to an online environment:

• Your troll/stalker criticises you and makes you doubt yourself. You might start believing that you’re a not good poster or lucky to have a right to comment at all.
• You feel anxious and stressed in your troll’s presence. You worry about how your online harasser might react and this makes you change your behaviour (like agreeing with them more) to avoid arguments with them.
• You feel intimidated and scared of your online harasser when they get angry — their behaviour might be unpredictable or aggressive. It silences you and forces you to stop commenting.
• You’re made to feel guilty and not given the freedom to say the things you want to say. Your online stalker might control you by telling you what you can and can’t believe, say or think. They may also emotionally blackmail you.

I have described Verbal Abuse at length below in the final part of the post, for those who are interested. Patricia Evan’s book - The Verbally Abusive Relationship - is great. There’s chapter or two where she goes through each of the verbal abuse tactics, what it looks like and so on, plus gives rebuttals. If you’re in an intimate partnership I would go on to read Lundy Bancroft’s “Why Does He Do That?” (as TheBewilderness recommended somewhere else)- the bible for all women in relationships. Both authors have YouTubes and are quoted extensively online, so important are their contributions.

My question is do we need more containment e.g. a code word which, when used, means you are being forced to close down/leave? That you are feeling harmed? Do we need to highlight the trolls more where they are swamping a thread and refusing to go away. What about where modding is weaponised?

I still think better informed modding is the key but that is unlikely to occur soon. I tend to leave if feeling "got at" or the unrelenting gas lighting gets too much. There seems to be enough of us collectively to hold the trolls to account at present and we rely on people self caring by taking time out. Maybe everything is fine. I thought I would check by asking the question.

ABOUT VERBAL ABUSE
Verbal abuse creates emotional pain and mental anguish. It is a lie told to you or about you. Generally, verbal abuse defines people, telling them what they are, what they think, their motives, and so forth. ….Usually one person is blaming, accusing, even name calling, and the other is defending and explaining.

Most people targeted by verbal abuse try to explain to the abuser why what they’ve just heard is not true or not okay. They explain themselves because they believe the perpetrator is rational and can hear them and the relationship will then get better. Then they usually hear more verbal abuse, for instance, “You’re too sensitive.” At that point they don’t usually realize that they have just been defined, and, therefore, verbally abused again.

Since the target of verbal abuse is often blamed, ignored, or yelled at, she may have difficulty recognizing just what is going on in the relationship.

Verbal abuse includes withholding, bullying, defaming, defining, trivializing, harassing, diverting, interrogating, accusing, blaming, blocking, countering, lying, berating, taunting, put downs, abuse disguised as a joke, discounting, threatening, name-calling, yelling and raging.

FRANCE PASSES LAW ON PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE (couldn't find UK stats)
“...the main abuse helpline for women in France received 90,000 calls a year."Of these, 84% concern psychological violence,"..."We have introduced an important measure here, which recognises psychological violence, because it isn't just blows [that hurt] but also words," Nadine Morano, the minister for family affairs, told the lower house of parliament.”

Source: I prefer this old website of hers that has lots of content on it

OP posts:
Ekphrasis · 30/04/2018 10:49

www.saveourtrolls.org

Still trying to get my head around it.

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 10:48

Good suggestions Fermat.

Ekphrasis · 30/04/2018 10:46

That is a good idea ferm.

In case anyone wants to hear this. I feel woman's hour could have benefitted from reading the OP here though. twitter.com/bbcwomanshour/status/990886044160724992?s=21

FermatsTheorem · 30/04/2018 10:45

Here's something I think might work. It's this: Don't ever name-check a troll.

Where someone is trolling by sea-lioning, or plopping, ignore, but ignore in an "active" way, i.e. scroll back up the thread to the last genuinely interesting comment and engage with that, making sure to name check that poster.

Where someone is trolling with factual inaccuracies/misrepresenting arguments in a way that you feel needs to be dealt with for the sake of the lurkers, do so but in a neutral way. Start the response with a third person account of the mistake: "It is sometimes mistakenly suggested that..." or "Some people wrongly use the straw man argument that..." Do not name check the troll.

That way, they are effectively ignored, the conversation moves on around them, they get frustrated by being made invisible (and possibly over-react to this, thus revealing them for the troll that they are).

Ekphrasis · 30/04/2018 10:31

I do feel like I'm in an alternate universe listening to this song Confused

Ekphrasis · 30/04/2018 10:23

"Woman's Hour has brought together four women who've been abused and trolled online and is following their journey to Take Back ConTROLL. We partnered up Charley Hough, Jackie Teale, Charlotte Proudman and Kelly McGurk with the advertising agency Mother and set them the challenge of helping our women reclaim their identity online.
These four women have been left feeling powerless after being shamed on the internet. Charley's half-brother shared ordinary photos from her social media accounts to an American porn website inviting users to leave obscene comments. Jackie tweeted Katie Hopkins and was the victim of a fake news twitterstorm that ended in legal action. Charlotte ended up leaving social media after she called out sexism in the legal profession. And Kelly's former partner shared naked images of her.
Today, Emma Barnett reveals their big idea to help tackle online abuse. Will their campaign galvanise a movement? It's a spectacle that brings together national treasures Charlotte Church, Miranda Hart and Andy Serkis. We find out from the celebrities involved why they wanted to speak out about online abuse. We discuss with Mother creatives Katie Mackay-Sinclair and Sophie Lloyd the workings behind their idea and get reaction to it. Also joining Emma, the Conservative peer Baroness Warsi and Isabelle Goldie, from the charity Mental Health Foundation, to discuss how policy changes could help deal with the issue.
Our four women will join Emma live throughout the programme and conclude as to whether this campaign has helped them Take Back ConTROLL."

They've created a satirical song about 'save our trolls'...

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 10:15

Oh i like the hashtag

Ekphrasis · 30/04/2018 10:13

Cracking open my red raspberry leaf tea in anticipation of a vbac! Probably a bit late though.

#itaintgonnawork

Floisme · 30/04/2018 10:12

I'm learning a lot from this thread and it's really making me think. However I disagree with the biscuit - I think it will just look as if we haven't got a good argument.

I only know about 5 recipes. I can talk about clothes though.

Ekphrasis · 30/04/2018 10:11

"Take back conTROLL"

Ekphrasis · 30/04/2018 10:10

There seemed to be a woman's hour piece or whole prog on trolling of women online at the moment.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 10:07

Christ the man can't flirt!!!

I think its honestly a hug on his emoji screen

I don't know how that makes a hug...

Anyway...im fairly positive I'm derailing

LangCleg · 30/04/2018 10:05

I like the talk of tea varieties and recipes and cake icing.

It's a very clear and obvious response to the entry of a poisonous troll and it's also fun and funny and positive. I like it when women control a conversation like that.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 10:04

If DH sent me that emoji I'd assume he was flirting (badly).

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 10:03

Im very shallow...i just join in

Its a fault

lightthedarkness · 30/04/2018 10:02

I'd go with recipes. No doubt MNHQ will be inundated with cries of derail but they're under siege at the moment anyway.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 10:02

d HQ have said that a whole thread of them could be considered harassment

You are kidding me!!

I dont even know what to say

Dh keeps sending me an emoji which is supposed to be a hug but looks more like a vagina when it appears on my phone, something like this...({})

Thats ruder than a biscuit

I don't know why people engage...there was a thread the other day and I thought it would be awesome if it was left empty, but someone still bit

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:57

I'd be up for recipes as a response. Potentially useful to others, annoys the snot out of the person who's desperately trying to get our attention, and really, how do you frame a bunch of women sharing recipes as evil and a danger to society?

Also other non-recipe info. I had no idea about the flesh eating properties of pineapple juice and will now be more careful with it!

lightthedarkness · 30/04/2018 09:54

AAK It's like the TGLWGH - so good in principle but hard to do in practice on a fast moving board.

With some current posters I'm Confused about why a number of long standing posters are giving them such attention? They have an agenda, they are not in the slightest bit interested in feminism and their agenda is very anti women.

Apart from the glorious derailing in recent nights aimed at an evident troll - which was fab, I just don't get why people keep engaging with them? (but am happy to accept I'm missing the point).

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:54

As an aside, the fact that the biscuit is considered by some to be unspeakably rude and HQ have said that a whole thread of them could be considered harassment is about as perfect an illustration of women being held to a higher standards as I can think of. For men - rape and death threats are fine, insult women all you like. For women - did you just post a biscuit smiley at someone? See, this is proof that women are terrible and must be stopped.

Kneedeepinunicorns · 30/04/2018 09:53

Angry the sharing recipes works well Wink Clear immediate message.

There are a very few posters who stick around long enough that when I see their name I automatically don't bother to read or respond to their post because it will always be discreet trolling and a waste of time engaging.

KittyKlaws · 30/04/2018 09:53

From that point of view, yes, the more TRA/MRA/Incel nuts being emotionally incontinent here the better.

I know you have a point here and I understand it but I worry it stops women engaging on this board too. I mean who can be arsed dealing with some of these people voluntarily?

KittyKlaws · 30/04/2018 09:51

I think a collective word or phrase which is innocuous enough would be useful. The biscuit bugs me but I'd be willing to use it (if I have to) Wink

Maybe something like 'interesting contribution' which has no negative connotations.

Kneedeepinunicorns · 30/04/2018 09:47

how many women and children have to be harmed before the more stubborn members of the political and media classes will admit that maybe they made a mistake?

For me one of the most depressing things about this whole clusterfuck of self ID proposals isn't that people are stubborn or making mistakes. It's that the majority of our politicians are people too busy self obsessing on their own personal agendas and virtue signalling for popularity to bother to think or research what bandwagons they promote. Many of them should never have been allowed into positions of responsibility, are not basically competent to the standard of most basic professional posts, and aren't capable of putting things like the general good or ethics first.

The trolling here is frustrating, not least that as usual the women here are held to standards of behaviour and ethics that the other side gleefully spit on if they're aware of them at all, and are as usual expected to have no feelings, never show temper or anger, patiently return good to endless provocation and stupidity and a complete lack of any reasoned logic, and defend absolutely everything. I've stopped participating lately, not because of the trolling but because the endless defending and explaining just validates the debate, the ridiculous jargon and the sheer stupidity of much of it.

But as pps have said: the conversations here aren't for the lunatic fringe who don't care and won't read anyway. They're for the MNetters lurking or randomly clicking on threads, because it shows very clearly what is wrong with the TRA agenda, the kind of people who are pushing it, the complete lack of ethical behaviour or ability to care about other people, the extreme immaturity and pathological thinking that characterises much of it, and the hatred for women that underpins it all. From that point of view, yes, the more TRA/MRA/Incel nuts being emotionally incontinent here the better.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:43

So maybe we can figure out a collective way to handle the intrusion of MRAs onto those threads here. What if we just starved them of oxygen completely? Agree upon a phrase or word that means "obvious MRA, will enjoy it if you get upset, don't engage", and then nobody responds to anything they say? Or responds with a biscuit and then moves on to engaging with other women.

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