Nearly every mass killer is a man. Why aren’t we talking about that?

Smeddum

You can say something over and over again, it doesn't make it true

Apt.

You are not oppressed

Horseshit. Unmitigated horseshit. Gender pay gap, violence against women, day to day bullshit sexism (which you have no understanding of), piss poor maternity pay/pensions, being dismissed by men who aren’t interested.

You can say something over and over again. It doesn’t make it true. The fact you are denying there is any issue at all tells me you’re just here to wind up women who have many valid points, articulately voiced, because you find it funny.

That makes your username pretty apt, no?

Babel

Oppressed/oppressor

Ok. Here lies the root of the entire problem.

This.

You are not oppressed.

See my post near the beginning of the thread about the 'Patriarchy'. You seem like an intelligent person, how can you buy into this infantilising nonsense?

There is no idea on earth you could push that would be more effective at holding women back and more damaging to your long term goals than the idea of the 'Patriarchy'

No, the thrust of my argument is that when someone points out that the class of people of which you’re a member has an issue with something, you don’t deflect.

You acknowledge the issue and acknowledge that you, as a person of that privileged class, might listen to members of said oppressed class for their opinions, experiences and suggestions on solving said problem.

I’m still wondering what a cartoon feminist looks like. Do enlighten me.

@PatriarchyPersonified genuine question, can you honestly not see that you’ve been dismissive and unconcerned when women on here have explained our viewpoints?

I am personally not a racist and therefore racism is not an issue

Bloody hell! For the umteempth time on this thread alone.

Nobody has said that sexism or racism or male violence etc are not issues

This continues to be the main thrust of your entire argument, and yet it's not a position that anyone has taken in this entire discussion!

This continual misrepresentation of everyone else's position to fit your narrative and create a straw man is depressing to say the least.

I mean you would fail a GCSE Critical Thinking essay if you did it there.

Don’t know where the b came from, sorry

When someone talks about racism I dont go on and on about how I personally am not a racist and thus racism isn’t an issue. I acknowledge that I, to the best of my knowledge am not racist. But that I see my life and the world around me through the lives experience of being white and so possibly, just possibly, the person who has experienced these things might have a point. I know I’m not racist. I also know that white propel as a class have created a society that benefits them and that I also benefit from that setup

This!b

Men as a class are responsible for more violence.

The response to that statement is NOT to start talking about you and how you are not violent and how your feelings are hurt. The statement was not about you as an individual. It was about men as a class, how men and the society they built is violent. To say ‘I’m not violent. I acknowledge that men as a class are’ is enough

When someone talks about racism I dont go on and on about how I personally am not a racist and thus racism isn’t an issue. I acknowledge that I, to the best of my knowledge am not racist. But that I see my life and the world around me through the lives experience of being white and so possibly, just possibly, the person who has experienced these things might have a point. I know I’m not racist. I also know that white propel as a class have created a society that benefits them and that I also benefit from that setup.

I don’t need to take on the guilt alone, but I do need to acknowledge the problem exists and be open to ways of changing that society for the better. From people who understand the problem better than I do.

How did you feel when other posters were telling all men (so every man in the entire world) to FUCK OFF earlier? I assume you were equally incensed? Shame you didn't express it. It must have slipped your mind.

Spaghetti didn’t tell “every man in the entire world” to FUCK OFF. She told men who minimise and dismiss genuine and real concerns as not their problem to FUCK OFF. I am well aware there are good and decent men in the world, I was raised by one, I live with one and hopefully I will raise 2. But they’re not the men we are discussing here, the men we are discussing here are the ones who are violent, who cause harm, who demean, abuse and attack women. I see you’ve resorted to patronising me too, how wonderfully unoriginal.

Men who fail to see the problem, acknowledge it and actively try to change things are part of the problem. “Big boys don’t cry” “be a man” “man up”, pub culture, toxic masculinity, these are all part of the problem that leads to the extreme statistics shown upthread.

Well at least that's something a bit different anyway Patriarchy. You're just coming across as a typical man I'm afraid, just repeating all the same things over and over.

Why does male violence persist? Because you're probably about as good as it gets, as men go. What hope is there?

I have read all your responses Patriarchy and I’ve come to the conclusion that you are enjoying provoking Spaghetti and are getting some kind of kick out of it.

Your tone is dismissive and patronising (whether you realise it or not) and resorting to childish insults is never an appropriate way to behave.

His inner bitch is always lurking just beneath the surface.

That's a good idea, the problem is that we have listened to Spaghetti she is coming across like a cartoon character feminist drawn by Donald Trump.

Rather personal. How so? What exactly has she said that gives rise to that? Expressing opinions that differentiate her from a doormat perchance?

I’ll take my seat on the cartoon feminist bench alongside her then, since I agree with her. Budge up, spaghetti

Smeddum

Its not an insult, Its an accurate representation.

How did you feel when other posters were telling all men (so every man in the entire world) to FUCK OFF earlier? I assume you were equally incensed? Shame you didn't express it. It must have slipped your mind.

That's a good idea, the problem is that we have listened to Spaghetti she is coming across like a cartoon character feminist drawn by Donald Trump

I find it really offensive when a man resorts to insults when a woman disagrees. It negates any valid points you may or may not have had.

Smeddum

Why not listen when a woman has an idea of how to solve it?

That's a good idea, the problem is that we have listened to Spaghetti she is coming across like a cartoon character feminist drawn by Donald Trump.

Not sure why men should defer to your ‘wisdom’?

Lived experience of Male violence? 40 odd years of experiencing life as a woman, of feeling like prey in far too many situations, of having to watch what you wear, where you go, how, with whom. What you say, or drink. Or being catcalled, grabbed, perhaps seriously sexually assaulted, witnessing friends and colleagues live through domestic violence, perhaps living through it yourself? Just having to adjust your behaviour every single time you are out in public to take safe routes, watch out, be safe. From men.

Little things like that, maybe?

0phelia

And there you have it. Not my problem. Unwillingness to learn. Superiority complex

Not quite. The 'your' that Larry was referring to was Spaghetti, not women in general.

But I think you knew that all along.

spaghetti

I'm feeling for you right now. Ignore it

Both of you are pitching men against women. Neither of you speak for all women or all men, and the sooner we get away from this stupid binary form of ‘debate’ the better. It’s like a school playground.

Not sure why men should defer to your ‘wisdom’?

And there you have it. Not my problem. Unwillingness to learn. Superiority complex.

Men know absolutely nothing about what it is to be female in a male dominated world and many are confidently open about how they don't care to know more.

Not sure why men should defer to your ‘wisdom’?

Why not? After all, it’s men who are factually shown to be responsible for the vast majority of violent crime. It’s men in positions of power (government, the police, the courts, the prison system, all heavily male orientated) who have failed to address it.

Why not listen when a woman has an idea of how to solve it?

Spaghetti

So many things here, lets address a few of them.

In the face of someone telling you about terrible things that happen to them and the people they love, how is criticism or 'nuance' justified? If someone tells me about racism I act like a human being and at least express human empathy with them, I don't criticise or try to introduce 'nuance' whatever that means. How is there nuance in a person's suffering

Its pretty important actually to ensure we have an accurate narrative to work from. I've said it before in this thread, but the kind of 'rad fem' (hate that term) opinions displayed on this thread are not normal or representative of wider society. Therefore why should I not challenge your version of the narrative or attempt to add some nuance to some of the hyperbole?

Referring directly to that quote, what you've said is you'll teach your child not to be violent and you'll not associate with violent people. Essentially you'll just do the bare minimum to be passable human being. How is that not the equivalent of 'not my problem'?

Errrm, that's not the bare minimum. That's the majority of the solution. If everyone did that then male violence figures would go through the floor within a generation.

essentially you're saying you don't want to put any energy into dealing with it beyond the absolute lowest level of effort you can get away with

Wow! Have you been taking lessons in discourse from Cathy Newman?

The guilt question is a ridiculous one. As many people told you, no one was trying to make you feel guilty because guess what? IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU AND YOUR FEELINGS! What is it with men and their feelings?

I think you have conflated the meaning of 'having guilt' (responsibility) for something and 'feeling guilty'. Do you understand the difference now I've explained that?

I don't feel guilty at all for the actions of other men outside of my control, why should I?

What can you do? Talk to the women in your life about their experiences of male violence. Listen. Don't talk about your feelings or how you're not violent. Does that seem like something you could do?

Erm, I already do those things. They are implicit in my previous statements on this thread.

How about women defer to men's wisdom just as much as men defer to women's wisdom Larry? Make it totally equal.

I'm guessing men wouldn't really enjoy that much.