Nearly every mass killer is a man. Why aren’t we talking about that?

So some men are violence because they enjoy it. If this enjoyment is channelled then it doesn't harm women. What makes them enjoy violence in the first place? Is that inbuilt in some men, or learnt? How could we stop this from happening?

And I’d also argue that those who do enjoy violence shouldn’t be anywhere near the armed forces!

Some struggle with war, some are unaffected and some enjoy it

That’s not what you said. You unequivocally stated that “men enjoy violence” as if it’s the cause or indeed an excuse. It is neither, because it is not true.

Some struggle with war, some are unaffected and some enjoy it. I dont think it's a controversial opinion.

They were young and it may have been youthful bravdo, but they had gruesome stories and told them with relish.

Like I said, different people now.

If you look at some of the stuff wikileaks produced, with American apache helicopter missions. They are laughing and joking when at killing people.

Some of the most violent men I know joined the army. They've done really well, and changed as people now. However, when they first came back from tours
of Afghanistan, they would tell stories of killing people. They loved it

That’s a sweeping generalisation if ever I heard one. I’ve never, and I mean never heard any squaddie talking about loving killing. In fact the two closest to me (DP and BIL) who have seen the theatre of war first hand have struggled with what they saw and did ever since.

Surely men, not women, need to lead in talking about male violence.

I would class myself as non violent. However, I enjoy violence in controlled environments.

I play Rugby and love it. It gives me a massive buzz, hitting someone hard but within the laws of game. The adrenaline rush is huge.

Men enjoy violence. The best way to reduce it is to channel it into other areas, sport, work, the army etc...

Some of the most violent men I know joined the army. They've done really well, and changed as people now. However, when they first came back from tours
of Afghanistan, they would tell stories of killing people. They loved it.

It's an issue that is never going away unfortunately.

The Bewilderness,

There are three separate discussions here.

Firstly, the impact of men's violence on women. Here, I will always respectfully listen to women.

Why are men violent? This can be addressed by both sexes (as can everything really) but maybe men have a little more insight due to their lived experience..

What to do about it and whether what we do is worth the costs (as whatever we do will have some costs) Again, both men and women should have equal input. We live in society together.

I am respectful of the fact that this is a feminist forum and I am careful not to post too much. However, it is also part of a parenting site where the moderators say it is discussions about feminism, so men are also welcome to post. As it appears in 'active conversations' what is discussed here will have influence well beyond the FWR subforum.

If it were decided by MN that this should be a woman only space, I (for one) would not post here again (I never name change so am unlikely to suddenly do so).

I have posted my views on this subject respectfully and certainly never petulantly. I have had very little response to my actual views and lots of picking apart of where my views are coming from and why.

Is this discussion really about finding the reason why and looking for realistic ways to tackle it?

Its not an insult, Its an accurate representation.

Don't you understand that it is different when abusive men do it? He has been explaining and explaining how "He's not hurting you; you're hurting him by saying he's hurting you."

Why, not who. Argh!

Surely that's the whole point though? Opposing opinions?

That says everything about who men like this come to Feminist forums.

So if men built society, and men are violent therefore society is bad? Is that about the thrust of it?

Missed it by a mile.

I'm not sure what you mean CritEqual? That women were as much responsible for not being able to vote as men were?

I don’t think 0phelia made a cheap shot, I think it sums up privilege perfectly. That’s not an insult, nor is it meant offensively. It’s very rarely the people who have privilege that want to see change.

0phelia way too take me out of context! I'm happy to negotiate for change I'm just wary to tear the whole thing up from the root, as historically that never ends well, but you enjoy your cheap shot!

I think free choice is a myth. Nobody man nor woman enjoys 100% free choice. Every choice is constrained by circumstance! I'd even argue people like the Royal Family live incredibly proscribed lives with a crucial reduction in their Liberty. Yet in other areas they enjoy more choice. Privilege can also be a double edged sword.

Yes women have been curtailed and still are, but I think it needs to be unpacked in more detail. Responsibility is the sister to freedom and combined together to create the concept of Liberty, and when you assign men greater responsibility you are in fact granting them greater Liberty relative to women.

I know we might not always agree but I hope you know I respect and am eager to hear your perspective.

I'm quite happy to have the society we have thank you very much!

And that is privilege in a nutshell.

As I said earlier Patriarchy - I've had men tell me about my periods, about the vaginal tears I got when my son was born, about how women feel about work. I've had men sincerely try to teach me about things that have happened in my own life. And here we have you, a man on a feminist thread trying to teach women about feminism.

Now to me that's really bizarre behaviour - the lack of insight you'd have to have to think that you could have more knowledge about a person's own experiences than they have themselves is really astounding. And yet men have displayed it so often that I have to wonder what it is that makes them think that way.

Do you have any insight for me Patriarchy?

I know wherever I've lectured Patriarchy it could never match up to your Massive Testicles of Knowledge, making you Know and See so much more about feminism than any Mere Woman ever could.

Women did contribute to our societies in spite of sexism, yes, but given a free choice no woman would ever have chosen the society that existed, say in 1895 - no human would ever choose to be someone else's possession to be used at will. Regardless of the contribution of great women, society overall was entirely dominated and shaped by men and we have had a massive struggle to change that to the extent we already have. It's taken far far too long, simply because men have tried to scupper it every step of the way.

Radical feminism isn't about promoting anarchy or marxism or anything like that. Things like the #metoo movement for example are a contained example of the radical approach - rather than just pointing the finger at Weinstein the movement is about addressing attitudes and inequalities in the entertainment industry as a whole to get to the root of why Weinstein could and did get away with what he did for so long.

Spaghetti

You have lectured feminist theory?! That's the only thing you have said on this thread that has surprised me.

University of Lincoln I assume? Bradford? Bucks? Am I close?

So if men built society, and men are violent therefore society is bad? Is that about the thrust of it?

I'm quite happy to have the society we have thank you very much! I'm more than open to negotiating changing it, but tearing the whole thing up from the root to replace it seems dangerous and irresponsible in the extreme.

I also take issue with the notion that women have not been instrumental in helping to create and grow our societies. Empress Dowager Cixi of China, Catherine The Great, Queens Elizabeth and Victoria, and it's not just leaders on the world stage women have contributed to each and every field of human endeavour, be it science, art, music, engineering you name it!

That's despite the sexism rampant across all human cultures, it makes me hugely excited to think what humanity will be capable of once the shackles are fully removed. However the radical approach sounds to me suspiciously like Marxism to me, and that always ends in tears with women often more shafted than they were before. Don't hand authoritarian collectivists a victory on a silver platter!

But again I'm reminded of that thing that really separates women and men.

Men genuinely think that in any situation, no matter how little their knowledge or experience, they have every right to tell women How It Is and women should just listen and accept it, no matter how much more knowledge and experience the women have. I think women are constantly taken by surprise by it, because women are not brought up to even consider the idea that they can just dictate things to other people - in fact they're taught that their opinion counts for nothing and that they just have to shut up.

I think women who don't shut up really surprise men.

You do realise that a lot of us here have studied, lectured, and engaged in feminist debate and discussion with hundreds of women, in some cases for decades and in some cases on an international stage? That you're not speaking to a bunch of little girls who need the benefit of your superior Man Knowledge about feminism? The utter fucking cheek of it is actually making me really angry! I didn't realise I could still get angry about this after so many years, so that's something new I suppose.

How are you not embarrassed to make such an utter fool of yourself? I cannot imagine going onto a forum with, say, black people of African origin and telling them about racism or African culture. I can't imagine the level of arrogance that takes.

If I go on a moderate feminist site, I just end up agreeing with everyone and nobody really gets anything out of it, especially not me

😂 I’m sure things are indeed being gotten out of you.

Oh cross posting... spaghetti you put it better :)

So I’m an extremist now am I? For saying that men are more violent (factual statement) that Male oppression exists? And for thinking that a world in which no one is oppressing anyone else might be quite nice to build and live in? Well I never.

I know people have been nailed to trees for less but it's hardly frothing extremism is it now? I’m sure I’ve heard wilder views put forth.