Boycott list

Keeping an eye out for H&M after they responded in a sycophantic way to this 'non-binary' wanker who had a hissy fit when told that their presence in the women's changing rooms was upsetting women customers

Supermatch Game,

I am sure that many transgender people discretely use changing rooms/prisons/etc of the sex they identify with. The issue for me, and I know others have a different position, is whether they cause problems or risk the safety of others. A change in policy for me would mean that if I found myself in a female changing room with an exhibitionist naked male-bodied person, I would want to be able to call security/reception etc to remove them. But equally I would want access by male bodied people able to be denied to any group of girls or vulnerable women, should whoever is in charge feel there could be a risk. So if there were a school group in a communal changing room, girl guide camps, accomodation for gymnasts, prisons, hostels etc.

Self ID would take away the ability to restrict women's spaces to female bodied people.

As you say: Don't leave your house deliberately unlocked otherwise it will just increase the risk that a burglar does get in.

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Dig in?

Ah, the old "it happens already" argument. I'll just leave my house unlocked then, after all, burglars find a way into homes anyway.

I didn't say it was ok or didn't matter. There is no evidence that making it easier to get a GRC would mean offences would happen more. A man doesn't need a GRC to dress as a woman and go into a shop changing room, which was what this thread was about. You can't ask to see a GRC anyway so how will that make it worse?

Don't leave your house deliberately unlocked otherwise it will just increase the risk that a burglar does get in.

Also, it's not just about safety, it's about dignity. My pre-teen daughter already doesn't like getting changed in front of boys/ men. She is worried about menstruation. She would be upset if she went into a space labelled "women" and found a man. These policy changes are specifically protecting those men who don't want women or girls to be able to protest their presence.

And yes, let's not bother with locks on houses or cars or airport security because the thieves / terrorists will always find a way anyway.......

But men can do that now if they really want to. They're not going to suddenly apply for a GRC to do it

Ah, the old "it happens already" argument. I'll just leave my house unlocked then, after all, burglars find a way into homes anyway.

Please stop derailing the thread.

That can only mean one thing. I've posted rational evidence based facts and arguments.

People can see what you're doing

Yes. As above.

There's a dear.

There's a deer 🦌

Self ID breaks down a layer of social convention that is part of the structure that keeps women safe.

But men can do that anyway. How is that going to make it more likely - if anything they will be on a register if they have a GRC so I just can't see it a very likely course of action for someone trying to offend. They would basically be giving their legal details to government and then be caught on cctv in a shop.

Again I’m not even talking about transwomen here - it’s letting the men in

But men can do that now if they really want to. They're not going to suddenly apply for a GRC to do it.

If a woman sues a shop for not providing a safe area for her to change, I wonder what would happen?

I have no idea. Is a shop more likely to be sued for not allowing a trans person to use the changing room or by a woman for not providing a safe area?

Yes. But why would a shop even think that allowing trans people to use their facilities as suggested by the EA would mean customers wouldn't be safe.

Because most changing areas are screened only by flimsy curtains. Very few have an attendant actually in there - shops rarely staff atcthat level. If men (again I am not even talking about transwomen, I’m talking about the kind of male predator who will use any loophole they can) can enter those areas, a flimsy curtain is not enough to keep women safe. It only takes one ‘accidental curtain opening ooops I’m so sorry didn’t realise anyone was here’ trick doesn’t it? Or walk in, plant a quick bug and you’ve got video on demand.

Target have found electronic spy devices in changing rooms increase. They’ve found voyeuristic crime and assault increase. Because MEN are now no longer limited by the social convention of not being allowed into that space. And there are a small but dangerous proportion of men who will use anything they can - yes dressing up, yes anything, to access women in a vulnerable state.

Self ID breaks down a layer of social convention that is part of the structure that keeps women safe. Again I’m not even talking about transwomen here - it’s letting the men in that’s the issue.

If a woman sues a shop for not providing a safe area for her to change, I wonder what would happen?

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All from a MN email. People who use MN to advertise job vacancies.

Would a shop have a duty of care to keep customers safe in changing rooms?

Yes. But why would a shop even think that allowing trans people to use their facilities as suggested by the EA would mean customers wouldn't be safe.

Bowl - ok men. They can dress up as women now and go in virtually anywhere if they were that hell bent on doing it. Unlikely anyone would stop them. It's also not a very good strategy as they would stick out like a sore thumb. There are far easier ways for a man to get access - they could dress up as a janitor for a start. Much less conspicuous. I don't think changing rooms would allow much opportunity for such a person and they are usually attended anyway.

Self ID benefits nobody except those who demand access to women’s spaces.

Not supporting Self ID but I'm not convinced it would make a difference - no one is going to start asking to see GRCs at changing rooms. They don't now and they won't if it goes through.

It wasn't meant to be funny McWoodle.

supermatch

The problem is not ‘a few transwomen trying on skirts.’ It’s that men - your common or garden man, mr joe public, will be able to access spaces they currently can’t. A small but persistent and dangerous proportion of the male population is a danger to women. that is why we have sex segregated spaces.

Removing the sex segregation allows men into areas where they can assault women. I’m not talking about trans women - leave them aside for a minute, I’m taking about men. Even if every transwoman on the planet behaves impeccably, the legislation that allows them into women’s spaces allows MEN in as well. That is the issue.

It would also allow said men to attack said transwomen. Self ID benefits nobody except those who demand access to women’s spaces.

Shops are going to be more concerned about complying with the law than worrying about your custom.

The law allows exclusion for justifiable objections. Would a shop have a duty of care to keep customers safe in changing rooms? As places in the USA have had a tripling of sexual/voyeuristic crime after making changing rooms unisex, I’d say shops may well change their minds If customer brought a lawsuit against them for not providing a safe changing area? Just a thought anyway.

A list of all advertisers here on MN needs to be complied too. While this ridiculous policy is in effect I will boycott every company who advertise here.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned.

It is good to see the Co-op implementing anti-oppressive practice.

and will be boycotting any shops that allow self-ID / abolish spaces for biological women and girls.

So what do you expect shops to do - ask to see birth certificates on entry to changing rooms?

Shops are going to be more concerned about complying with the law than worrying about your custom.

There is a thread on cancer research, calling us cervix owners. No more donations there.