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Original poster

Trans women are women answers to Terfmore's questions

881 replies

SupermatchGame · 25/04/2018 20:33

Terfmore. I don't want to override the ASD discussion that's developed...
but SupermacthGame: you gave your explanation why "trans women are women". I was hoping for a coherent argument.
Could you respond to my request that you clarify your position; I found it difficult to understand tbh I found it incoherent.
You could start a new thread if you like.

Ok, as you suggest:

upthread you say -
"Trans women are women because 'woman' (or female) is not only a legal designation but having a gender identity of 'woman' is a legitimate female gender identity with some basis in biology and physiology. No-one said this is an exact science. It's pragmatic." -
Could you break this down -

1. what do you mean "woman" is a legal designation? what law are you referring to? do you mean "adult human female"?

I mean the category ‘female’ not only has a biological definition, but it is also a legal category that can be conferred to a person following GRC. I’m using ‘woman’ and ‘female’ interchangeably here. Eg as specified in the Royal College of Psychiatrist’s Guidance on gender dysphoria:
"Once a Gender Regulation [sic] Certificate has been issued, the applicant must, in accordance with the provisions of that certificate, be identified as a man or a woman and not a ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman’. "

Quoting the Gender Recognition Act 2004:
"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)." (my bold)

2. what does "gender identity of woman is a legitimate female gender identity" mean.

It means that regardless of natal sex, if a person identifies as a woman, and they have been diagnosed or confirmed as having a ‘female gender identity’ then to all intents and purposes they are classed as having a female gender identity that legitimises medical and legal transition. I’m not sure taken in isolation this clause makes much sense because it is part of a larger sentence.

3. in what way is an identity legitimate (and presumably there will be non or illegitimate identity?)

Legitimate as in confirmed by psychiatrists and/ or psychologists. As in a (cross sex) gender identity that is not caused by some co-morbidity or underlying pathology. (Not caused by anything other than GID/ or 'transgenderism'). An identity that can then be further legitimised by changing legal status.

4. do you mean identity "has some basis in biology and physiology"? what do you mean by identity? (it means different things to different people).

I mean gender identity (the sex with which an individual identifies with or feels they are) has genetic, biological, environmental and societal causes. (Although you could say that about most aspects of identity - using the biopsychosocial model). What evidence there is points to this. I’ve highlighted a lot of it on the other thread. I was abbreviating my language and focusing on the non environmental causes - by biology I meant genes and biochemistry including hormonal influences. By physiology I meant the physiology of the brain as in brain structure. Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

5. What is "pragmatic"? I think you are referring to "trans women are women" not being exact but we just have to live with it. but I may have that wrong?

Not 100% perfect solution. No-one has yet found a way to ‘cure’ transsexualism. Treatment alleviates dysphoria. In many cases it supports the person to lead a happier life in which they can function better psychologically, emotionally, socially and occupationally. Sometimes also in terms of sexual relationships. It’s not a perfect transition - trans women do not acquire wombs, trans men do not have real testicles (not that they all want to?) Not all trans people can resemble their new sex as much as they would ideally like. But it can be good enough. It can support improved health outcomes for some individuals. It is also a solution that most of society (and it’s main organisations) seems to accept. Hence pragmatic, not perfect, solution.

OP posts:
Original poster
SupermatchGame · 27/04/2018 20:49

Because of course you never make the same points over and over again Angry or restate the same arguments on here. Repeatedly.

OP posts:
pombear · 27/04/2018 20:48

Just checking in as a regular lurker to say thanks to those with the patience and knowledge who keep on restating the rationale as to why this issue is so important for the rights of women and girls, and who keep engaging.

Ages ago, many of your posts helped me to understand the issue - and nope, I wasn't 'radicalised', it made me go off and research all points of view myself. I still do, even though every time I do, it makes me even more certain of where I stand.

It must be exhausting, and you may sometimes feel it's circular and neverending. But I'm sure that laying it out there, each and every time, helps even more lurkers to see what's going on.

The denial and diversion of many women's key concerns by some posters helps me, every time, to understand why this is so important.

Thank you.

Original poster
SupermatchGame · 27/04/2018 20:47

I'm not trying to make anyone submit. I'm arguing and debating. You're trying to frame my contributions as abusive.

And you're not exactly averse to a bit of provocation yourself.

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 27/04/2018 20:46

Yeah, at this point I feel like I could write the opposition script myself, Trousers.

Original poster
SupermatchGame · 27/04/2018 20:44

Yes interesting, she argues against self id. As she does elsewhere. www.independent.co.uk/voices/lucy-masoud-fbu-lgbt-trans-london-fire-brigade-union-today-transphobic-a8267096.html

8.00 "Simply to indulge the gender identity mafia." So there's a good bit of hyperbole then.

She might have to be in a toilet at the same time as a trans woman. How traumatising.

Meanwhile here is another lesbian actually committing a crime against another woman. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/09/woman-allegedly-tricked-into-sex-with-friend-pretending-to-be-man-lesbian-court-told

So what is your point?

OP posts:
Trousersdontmakemeaman · 27/04/2018 20:39

That's where it ends up every time kittens. We don't submit so the gloves come off and a shit storm of accusations appears.

merrymouse · 27/04/2018 20:38

Trans women who have undergone hormonal treatment are very much physically weaker than men.

But there is no need for somebody with a GRC to maintain hormones at a particular level now, and it certainly wouldn't be a requirement under self ID.

UpstartCrow · 27/04/2018 20:38

Why is it so bad for women to have boundaries?

AngryAttackKittens · 27/04/2018 20:34

I'd also point out that accusing women here of the various over the top things Trousers collated above is pretty "divisive" too.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 27/04/2018 20:29

We know, women and girls are being told to suck it up and submit. That's oppressive to 52% of the population.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/04/2018 20:29

Still not weaker than women, though, and under the current trans "umbrella" that's being used to determine who goes where hormonal treatment is not required. Which I'm sure multiple women here have pointed out to you already.

If your argument is that there should be different rules for post transition transsexuals then you should address that to the bodies making decisions about who does and doesn't count as trans for legislative purposes. Mumsnet does not make those decisions.

Original poster
SupermatchGame · 27/04/2018 20:28

That's right focus in on my style of language here. Easier than dealing with the actual issues isn't it.

OP posts:
Original poster
SupermatchGame · 27/04/2018 20:26

Trans women who have undergone hormonal treatment are very much physically weaker than men. So much so that the IOC has decided they can compete as equals. I'm not entirely comfortable with that as they must surely retain some advantage around larger bones/ joints/ proportions - but I'm not an expert. They must have studied it.

Early transitioners will be even more similar/ identical in strength to their acquired sex.

Segregation will force some to disclose their medical history in public in a way that violates their privacy and could put them in danger. This goes for both male and female transitioners. Your language is really divisive. Can you not see how supporting enforced segregation sounds so oppressive to many?

OP posts:
Trousersdontmakemeaman · 27/04/2018 20:24

Why not listen to Lucy Massoud explain how a cross dresser would wreck her career. An Arab Muslim Lesbian firefighter, one of the first on the scene at Grenfell.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/04/2018 20:23

Unless the point is "you're all mean meanies and should shut up", in which case nope, sorry, not gonna.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/04/2018 20:23

I'm note sure but I assume there is one and Supermatch will get there eventually?

Teacuphiccup · 27/04/2018 20:21

But what’s the point that’s being made???

AngryAttackKittens · 27/04/2018 20:20

I mean, I understand that you have a point to make and are determined to make it, Supermatch, but maybe turn down the exaggeration just a teensy bit?

CharlieParley · 27/04/2018 20:20

Teacup the intention to medically transition however, as evidenced by a treatment plan agreed between the applicant and their doctor, is required. FYI it is not just required to have the plan, the applicant is expected to follow through on the plan by at least partially transitioning (some applications for a GRC are deferred to allow the applicant to provide evidence of this).

This does not mean they are expected to get genital surgery. I wouldn't necessarily insist on it either, it is such a drastic step from which there is no way back to the status quo.

However, given what the research shows on cross sex hormones in adults (they do not necessarily render male patients incapable of having penetrative sex), a GRC should not mean automatic access to female spaces if surgery is not required.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 27/04/2018 20:19

completely destroyed your life
reigned terror on a mass scale
set back women's rights by 100 years
inflicted most of the violence that the world has suffered?
responsible for antimicrobial resistance
and climate change

hyperbole

noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
"he vowed revenge with oaths and hyperboles"
synonyms: exaggeration, overstatement, magnification, amplification, embroidery, embellishment, overplaying, excess, overkill;

AngryAttackKittens · 27/04/2018 20:17

Is it raining hyperbole in here or did Supermatch just accidentally turn on the shower?

Teacuphiccup · 27/04/2018 20:15

Have they reigned terror on a mass scale on women and girls?

Well male bodied people have. So that’s why female bodied people would like some safeguarding before opening the doors to any male bodied person wanting to come into our vulnerable spaces.

Original poster
SupermatchGame · 27/04/2018 20:15

Teacup
I'm not completely sure. Still forming my opinions by reading and discussing.

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 27/04/2018 20:14

Women's sports are finished and there are full bodied convicted rapists in women's prisons. Women and only women are still taxed to fund DV shelters, but they are now expected to take in more clients.

So its not all sunshine and roses, is it.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/04/2018 20:14

So, here's the thing. Even if TIMs are physically weaker than other males
(and under the definition Stonewall and most other orgs are using there's no reason to assume they would be), they're still stronger than women. So what's being proposed, as usual, is that women absorb extra potential for risk so as to protect TIMs from risk.

Third spaces are the only way to deal with that clash of rights and needs. Women should not be required to absorb extra risk in order to keep another group safe.