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Original poster

Trans women are women answers to Terfmore's questions

881 replies

SupermatchGame · 25/04/2018 20:33

Terfmore. I don't want to override the ASD discussion that's developed...
but SupermacthGame: you gave your explanation why "trans women are women". I was hoping for a coherent argument.
Could you respond to my request that you clarify your position; I found it difficult to understand tbh I found it incoherent.
You could start a new thread if you like.

Ok, as you suggest:

upthread you say -
"Trans women are women because 'woman' (or female) is not only a legal designation but having a gender identity of 'woman' is a legitimate female gender identity with some basis in biology and physiology. No-one said this is an exact science. It's pragmatic." -
Could you break this down -

1. what do you mean "woman" is a legal designation? what law are you referring to? do you mean "adult human female"?

I mean the category ‘female’ not only has a biological definition, but it is also a legal category that can be conferred to a person following GRC. I’m using ‘woman’ and ‘female’ interchangeably here. Eg as specified in the Royal College of Psychiatrist’s Guidance on gender dysphoria:
"Once a Gender Regulation [sic] Certificate has been issued, the applicant must, in accordance with the provisions of that certificate, be identified as a man or a woman and not a ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman’. "

Quoting the Gender Recognition Act 2004:
"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)." (my bold)

2. what does "gender identity of woman is a legitimate female gender identity" mean.

It means that regardless of natal sex, if a person identifies as a woman, and they have been diagnosed or confirmed as having a ‘female gender identity’ then to all intents and purposes they are classed as having a female gender identity that legitimises medical and legal transition. I’m not sure taken in isolation this clause makes much sense because it is part of a larger sentence.

3. in what way is an identity legitimate (and presumably there will be non or illegitimate identity?)

Legitimate as in confirmed by psychiatrists and/ or psychologists. As in a (cross sex) gender identity that is not caused by some co-morbidity or underlying pathology. (Not caused by anything other than GID/ or 'transgenderism'). An identity that can then be further legitimised by changing legal status.

4. do you mean identity "has some basis in biology and physiology"? what do you mean by identity? (it means different things to different people).

I mean gender identity (the sex with which an individual identifies with or feels they are) has genetic, biological, environmental and societal causes. (Although you could say that about most aspects of identity - using the biopsychosocial model). What evidence there is points to this. I’ve highlighted a lot of it on the other thread. I was abbreviating my language and focusing on the non environmental causes - by biology I meant genes and biochemistry including hormonal influences. By physiology I meant the physiology of the brain as in brain structure. Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

5. What is "pragmatic"? I think you are referring to "trans women are women" not being exact but we just have to live with it. but I may have that wrong?

Not 100% perfect solution. No-one has yet found a way to ‘cure’ transsexualism. Treatment alleviates dysphoria. In many cases it supports the person to lead a happier life in which they can function better psychologically, emotionally, socially and occupationally. Sometimes also in terms of sexual relationships. It’s not a perfect transition - trans women do not acquire wombs, trans men do not have real testicles (not that they all want to?) Not all trans people can resemble their new sex as much as they would ideally like. But it can be good enough. It can support improved health outcomes for some individuals. It is also a solution that most of society (and it’s main organisations) seems to accept. Hence pragmatic, not perfect, solution.

OP posts:
Teacuphiccup · 27/04/2018 22:27

Well for the purpose of the law they are considered female but they aren’t actually female are they.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/04/2018 22:27

Repeating it over and over again doesn't make it true, and as you can see nobody here is finding your arguments convincing so far. The legal system does not have the power to change a person's biological sex, just to compel people to lie about it (sadly).

OldCrone · 27/04/2018 22:26

if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman

Legally, not physically.

Original poster
SupermatchGame · 27/04/2018 22:22

TIMs aren't women, so no

But trans women are, so yes.

"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)."

OP posts:
Original poster
SupermatchGame · 27/04/2018 22:19

Teacup I didn't think I was arguing against you. Like who are you and where did you come from?

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 27/04/2018 22:00

denial and diversion of many women's key concerns by some posters

TIMs aren't women, so no. Also "I know you are but what am I?" is a. childish and b. a bit 2005.

jellyfrizz · 27/04/2018 21:59

But to go back and say that transitioning should not be possible at all and that people should just always be treated as their biological sex is really never going to happen.

No one is saying transitioning shouldn’t be possible, what other people do to their bodies and how they present is up to them, it’s got nothing to do with law. You don’t need a GRC to transition.

People shouldn’t be treated differently because of their biological sex anyway - unless for specific biological reasons (pregnancy etc.).

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 27/04/2018 21:55

But to go back and say that transitioning should not be possible at all and that people should just always be treated as their biological sex is really never going to happen

No one is saying that.

The conversation is about where the line is drawn.

PeakPants · 27/04/2018 21:51

I realise the debate has moved on a bit, but someone asked about the position of trans rights in the rest of Europe. Here is a link:

www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/05/this-is-what-transgender-rights-in-europe-looks-like/

You will see that quite a few countries require sterilisation/hormone treatment in order to transition. But to go back and say that transitioning should not be possible at all and that people should just always be treated as their biological sex is really never going to happen. The countries that have no trans recognition are Hungary, Moldova, Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania.

Teacuphiccup · 27/04/2018 21:28

super

If you don’t support self id and from what else you’ve said about your position on the matter it sounds like you pretty much have the same opinion on it as me, so I’m not sure what you’re arguing against.

Do you think it’s possible for a man to literally become female?

AllyMcBeagle · 27/04/2018 21:27

Jelly but gay men don't have the same biological vulnerability as women.

Neither do transwomen.

Original poster
SupermatchGame · 27/04/2018 21:26

Jelly but gay men don't have the same biological vulnerability as women.

OP posts:
Original poster
SupermatchGame · 27/04/2018 21:24

Merry I don't support self id or a process that has no safeguards and checks.

Trans women are often discussed on here.

OP posts:
jellyfrizz · 27/04/2018 21:20

Could out them to public/ men who then become more aware of that individual and target them.

Oh, like used to happen to gay men? It wasn’t hiding away and pretending to not be gay that helped attitudes change. (I realise there is still some way to go with this).

merrymouse · 27/04/2018 21:13

But that doesn't mean most of them do

I really hope all the trans women in prison have committed a crime otherwise there has been a grave miscarriage of justice.

However, as you must have gathered by now, the problem is not trans women, the problem is men. You have talked about hormones, but under Self ID there no objective difference between a man and a trans woman.

CharlieParley · 27/04/2018 21:09

SupermatchGame [The IOC] must have studied it.

Nope. They did not. They based their decision on one (!) flawed study of seven M2F competitive runners.

  1. a sample size of seven is far too small to be evidence of anything

  2. some of the runners studied stopped training properly after they started suppressing testosterone. Their results being worse than before is therefore not evidence of those suppressants wiping out their advantage (it suggests however that they do depress motivation and mood as this is also what intersex athletes who were forced to take them experienced)

  3. some of the runners experienced no negative effects on performance at all and were just as good as before taking suppressants

  4. this study did not research international level athletes which are entirely different machines from us mere mortals

  5. the study only looked at one sport - from recall it was either middle or long distance runners and extrapolated the result across all other sports

  6. because the study did not equalise results properly, it took them all at face value. It simply concluded that because more runners than not had slower times after taking testosterone suppressants, taking testosterone suppressants therefore wipes out all advantages.

Original poster
SupermatchGame · 27/04/2018 21:05

How would it put them in danger?

Could out them to public/ men who then become more aware of that individual and target them.

And before you say 'yes that's why we need to stop men's violence', for the time being we have not been able to stop men's violence. Men are still currently a risk, which is why we need safe female spaces for vulnerable women, including trans women.

OP posts:
Original poster
SupermatchGame · 27/04/2018 21:00

Yes. lesbians and women can commit crimes. It's why some of them go to prison. Not sure what your point is here?

Exactly. Some trans women commit crimes. It's why some of them go to prison as well. But that doesn't mean most of them do. Or that they constitute such a risk to other women that they should be excluded.

OP posts:
jellyfrizz · 27/04/2018 20:59

Segregation will force some to disclose their medical history in public in a way that violates their privacy and could put them in danger.

How would it put them in danger?

Original poster
SupermatchGame · 27/04/2018 20:57

Oh look...

denial and diversion of many women's key concerns by some posters

Thank you.

OP posts:
Trousersdontmakemeaman · 27/04/2018 20:55

The denial and diversion of many women's key concerns by some posters helps me, every time, to understand why this is so important.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/04/2018 20:52

I guess lesbian (genitally fixated bigot) cancels out Arab and Muslim (if you're dismissive to people in these groups someone may notice and point it out) in the game or intersectionality top trumps?

Poor Crenshaw, look at what people have done with her perfectly valid and useful framework.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/04/2018 20:50

"Debating" makes it all sound a bit impersonal, like none of this has any real impact on anyone involved and it's just an intellectual exercise. Possible for you it is, Supermatch, but for most of the other people here it's a bit more personal.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 27/04/2018 20:50

Super is a boring game of bingo. I'm getting Grunions evidence now.

She might have to be in a toilet at the same time as a trans woman. How traumatising.

Super pronounces on intersectional feminism. Arab Muslim lesbians have to just get over their selves.

merrymouse · 27/04/2018 20:50

She might have to be in a toilet at the same time as a trans woman. How traumatising.

Yes. Sharing spaces with men is traumatising for some women.

Meanwhile here is another lesbian actually committing a crime against another woman.

Yes. lesbians and women can commit crimes. It's why some of them go to prison. Not sure what your point is here?

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