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Original poster

Trans women are women answers to Terfmore's questions

881 replies

SupermatchGame · 25/04/2018 20:33

Terfmore. I don't want to override the ASD discussion that's developed...
but SupermacthGame: you gave your explanation why "trans women are women". I was hoping for a coherent argument.
Could you respond to my request that you clarify your position; I found it difficult to understand tbh I found it incoherent.
You could start a new thread if you like.

Ok, as you suggest:

upthread you say -
"Trans women are women because 'woman' (or female) is not only a legal designation but having a gender identity of 'woman' is a legitimate female gender identity with some basis in biology and physiology. No-one said this is an exact science. It's pragmatic." -
Could you break this down -

1. what do you mean "woman" is a legal designation? what law are you referring to? do you mean "adult human female"?

I mean the category ‘female’ not only has a biological definition, but it is also a legal category that can be conferred to a person following GRC. I’m using ‘woman’ and ‘female’ interchangeably here. Eg as specified in the Royal College of Psychiatrist’s Guidance on gender dysphoria:
"Once a Gender Regulation [sic] Certificate has been issued, the applicant must, in accordance with the provisions of that certificate, be identified as a man or a woman and not a ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman’. "

Quoting the Gender Recognition Act 2004:
"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)." (my bold)

2. what does "gender identity of woman is a legitimate female gender identity" mean.

It means that regardless of natal sex, if a person identifies as a woman, and they have been diagnosed or confirmed as having a ‘female gender identity’ then to all intents and purposes they are classed as having a female gender identity that legitimises medical and legal transition. I’m not sure taken in isolation this clause makes much sense because it is part of a larger sentence.

3. in what way is an identity legitimate (and presumably there will be non or illegitimate identity?)

Legitimate as in confirmed by psychiatrists and/ or psychologists. As in a (cross sex) gender identity that is not caused by some co-morbidity or underlying pathology. (Not caused by anything other than GID/ or 'transgenderism'). An identity that can then be further legitimised by changing legal status.

4. do you mean identity "has some basis in biology and physiology"? what do you mean by identity? (it means different things to different people).

I mean gender identity (the sex with which an individual identifies with or feels they are) has genetic, biological, environmental and societal causes. (Although you could say that about most aspects of identity - using the biopsychosocial model). What evidence there is points to this. I’ve highlighted a lot of it on the other thread. I was abbreviating my language and focusing on the non environmental causes - by biology I meant genes and biochemistry including hormonal influences. By physiology I meant the physiology of the brain as in brain structure. Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

5. What is "pragmatic"? I think you are referring to "trans women are women" not being exact but we just have to live with it. but I may have that wrong?

Not 100% perfect solution. No-one has yet found a way to ‘cure’ transsexualism. Treatment alleviates dysphoria. In many cases it supports the person to lead a happier life in which they can function better psychologically, emotionally, socially and occupationally. Sometimes also in terms of sexual relationships. It’s not a perfect transition - trans women do not acquire wombs, trans men do not have real testicles (not that they all want to?) Not all trans people can resemble their new sex as much as they would ideally like. But it can be good enough. It can support improved health outcomes for some individuals. It is also a solution that most of society (and it’s main organisations) seems to accept. Hence pragmatic, not perfect, solution.

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 29/04/2018 21:42

@SupermatchGame "It's about how people live their lives and how we as a society treat people equitably and fairly and take a pragmatic stance when the rights of different groups come into conflict."

By the looks of things the stance you want to take is that gender (which is amorphous and has little bearing on life) trumps biological sex (which is easily definited and which impacts life largely).

Why?

How do people live their lives as females if they are not biologically female?

The only cross over I can see (shared by women and all trans people) is that if they are perceived as female they will possibly be treated on sexist or misogynistic ways by males.

If trans women have a GRC they will be able to live their life and I expect many, especially women, will respect them.

However, if they appear on the internet with their beard and skirt telling us they are widening the bandwidth of being female; or appear in our medical room with their stubble to perform a smear when a female nurse was requested; or appear on our TV winning 'Woman of the Year' and saying the hardest thing is knowing what to wear - we will not respect them or treat them as women.

But we do not do what natal males do to trans women and women, so why is the continual cry from the trans lobby anout women, and why is it not to do something about male violence?

Juzza12 · 29/04/2018 21:42

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thebewilderness · 29/04/2018 21:36

After all the effort and all the years of struggle by the L&G the harm done by transgender advocates to turn the sexual orientation of women into a gender identity is painful to watch.

Juzza12 · 29/04/2018 21:36

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Ereshkigal · 29/04/2018 21:35

But hey, that's not my fight, that's one for Still (if she ever misses me enough to come back). I was simply making the point that not all lesbians agree - clearly.

Why is it remotely relevant what one person thinks?

thebewilderness · 29/04/2018 21:32

For all intents and purposes they are the same here.
The effort to make them mean the same does not make them mean the same.

Italiangreyhound · 29/04/2018 21:29

@RatRolyPoly but you or someone else just told us no one really believes trans women are female. And the definition of a lesbian is a female who is attracted to/sexually active with etc other females.

So anyone dating/sleeping with males and females is bi. They may not like that fact but based on a biological definition definition of sexuality. Then it is what it is.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 29/04/2018 21:28

Yes, exclusively

Ahhhh definitely lesbian then

Original poster
SupermatchGame · 29/04/2018 21:28

That is the key to the problem with this poorly written law. Female is not a gender, nor is male. Changing the meaning of words without providing definitions sows confusion as we can all clearly see has happened in this case.

For all intents and purposes they are the same here. It isn't about some academic discourse exploring the difference between sex and gender, as interesting as that is. It's about how people live their lives and how we as a society treat people equitably and fairly and take a pragmatic stance when the rights of different groups come into conflict.

OP posts:
Juzza12 · 29/04/2018 21:25

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RatRolyPoly · 29/04/2018 21:24

...and even going so far as to insinuate that I am not a lesbian

As opposed to stating explicitly that you're not a lesbian?

But hey, that's not my fight, that's one for Still (if she ever misses me enough to come back). I was simply making the point that not all lesbians agree - clearly.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 29/04/2018 21:21

and even going so far as to insinuate that I am not a lesbian

Really?

Well we can sort that one out

Do you fancy biological women?

Ereshkigal · 29/04/2018 21:20

If trans women want supportive friends they need to persuade the government to drop self id

I would say they now need to back off pretending to be actual women, ask for third spaces and stay out of ours and accept that they are male and transgender.

Juzza12 · 29/04/2018 21:18

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Italiangreyhound · 29/04/2018 21:16

So it is not for you @peakpants about giving natal males rights over natal females? Even though that is the consequence?

"It's about recognising that gender identity (the sex with which one identifies) is likely to have biological and sociological determinants and once established, so far, seems to be immutable."

What is your evidence for this?

How is it not based around stereotypes?

And even if all this were 100% true why not just support the GRA and let all genuinely dysphoric people get a GRC?

Why allow any old Tom, Dick or Harry self identify?

And even if all that is true how is this the responsibility of natal women to accommodate?

"... identities and lives of trans people are credible and valid."

I am willing to use prefered pronouns, and accept the GRA. How much more am I expected to do to validate other people's 'identities'?

Supposing I feel I am your child or partner or whatever and want you to validate my identity? Can I come and live in your house?

It's only possible to respect people's identities as long as it does not cause harm. If my elderly uncle thinks he is a brain surgeon I might call him Dr Greyhound, but I won't let him loose on my brain.

Demanding all males who want access to female only spaces be allowed in, is a step way too far.

We have, sadly, given too much away already. Which is why twats in face masks call groups of ordinary women hate groups for wanting to discuss the affect of all this crap on us!

If you really know lots of trans women ask them what they think of natal women and girls. If they care about us they should be adding their voices to tell these teenage yobs 'not in my name'.

If trans people want respect they should stop allowing natal men to dictate to women. We've had millennium of this stuff. And from the TRAs it's just more fucking dudes oppressing women.

If trans people don't want to be involved in that overtly masculine behaviour they need to start organising meetings to talk to women - ordinary women, black, white, middle class, working class, lesbian, straight, bi or whatever.

Because right now 'trans women' by association are caught up with very high profile aggressive males shouting women down in the media and on the steets.

And don't even get me started on the backlash when all the kids on blockers start suing in the USA!

If trans women want supportive friends they need to persuade the government to drop self id (I know some genuine transsexuals equally afraid of encountering a self id bloke in the loos) or at the very least lead the way I'm bridge building talks.

The thugs in face masks at the women's place meetings will melt away in a few months. The damage being done to relations between trans women and women is very real.

I think in some ways the prospect of self id has really broken trust.

Ereshkigal · 29/04/2018 21:16

Well I knew you were a lesbian Juzza but I didn't realise you were the boss of all lesbians who gets to decide who's in your "club" and who's not.

Why do you get to challenge lesbians about whether men should be included?

Juzza12 · 29/04/2018 21:15

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UpstartCrow · 29/04/2018 21:11

Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic, so how about people respect that.

RatRolyPoly · 29/04/2018 21:10

Come on Juzza, their posting styles are nothing alike. Still was never that nice Grin

Juzza12 · 29/04/2018 21:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RatRolyPoly · 29/04/2018 21:08

Erm, I a lesbian... Stillscreaming doesn't think lesbians are female homosexuals, not sure how she can be a lesbian.

Well I knew you were a lesbian Juzza but I didn't realise you were the boss of all lesbians who gets to decide who's in your "club" and who's not.

Italiangreyhound · 29/04/2018 20:53

@PeakPants are you saying you don't believe Juzza?

"Who precisely is pressuring them to sleep with trans women. Because there actually aren’t that many trans women out there and most lesbians don’t even know any trans women." Who exactly are you of you can speak for most lesbians?

Hyppolyta · 29/04/2018 20:50

PeakPants the only way to be a lesbianis to be a female who is sexually attracted to other lesbians.

There are many, many homophobes who disgaree with this but the fault is with them, and their opinion is really not relevant.

Hyppolyta · 29/04/2018 20:50

PeakPants the only way to be a lesbianis to be a female who is sexually attracted to other lesbians.

There are many, many homophobes who disgaree with this but the fault is with them, and their opinion is really not relevant.

Ereshkigal · 29/04/2018 20:49

Tentative hypothesis: perhaps you never really understood what it means to be a transitioned man or woman in the first place. Or why their transition has been medically, politically and legally sanctioned in most of the developed world.

Perhaps it's not all about the transitioned men or women. Perhaps others have a stake.