Your peaktrans moment for today! Top this if you can.

I notice Maisy doesn't have a problem being assertive or "telling it like it is" herself. Funny that.

I find it upsetting that I have a number of female friends who have views that align so closely to lots of threads on here and yet they 'don't do feminism'. It got me thinking about how many women probably sit outside the debate, not getting involved, miss interesting pieces of reading

Obviously your message/approach isnt getting through. Seems like your friends need a different angle, yes?

Yes, assertiveness can be shocking when you aren't used to it. It can seem like aggression. But it's really not

Maisy, you're a teacher aren't you? I feel that you're trying to use your teaching methods on this thread, you're speaking to pp's as though we're all in the classroom.

........

You know what? I'm going to let bewilderness handle the question of feminists putting women off feminism by sounding too much like feminists.

Italiangreyhound
See mine's not about upsetting TRA. It was thoughts on how it might be possible to try and appeal to a wider group of women.

I find it upsetting that I have a number of female friends who have views that align so closely to lots of threads on here and yet they 'don't do feminism'. It got me thinking about how many women probably sit outside the debate, not getting involved, miss interesting pieces of reading (because mainstream media hasn't been brilliant and presenting women's issues) whilst actually being interested in some of issues.

It's funny, it's usually men who when you don't agree with them the first time repeat the same thing over and over again on the assumption that if they say it often enough you'll stop disagreeing, out of exhaustion if nothing else.

(Nah, I've had coffee, plenty of energy left.)

@CharlieParley "Sometimes standing your ground means not giving a flying fuck about offending someone because the issue goes way beyond hurt feelings."

I completely agree. For the record I wasn't trying to tone police anyone. I was just thinking it out for myself. I don't want to try and hold anyone back, I find all of you women fucking formidable!

"DH doesn't give a shit about my feelings (or anyone else's for that matter) when he needs something that is absolutely vital to him. So, why should I?

TRAs or that person thinking they're having periods - they don't give a shit about our feelings. So why should I give a shit about theirs? Especially when it's about using pronouns talking about randoms on the internet. Just to have the moral high ground? Just so that other lot of randoms can't pronoun-police me? Fat lot of good that's going to do me when my rights are gone.

Fighting for your rights isn't pretty. It cannot be sanitised." Very true and it is really hard, for some of us, to over come that female socialisation. So please do not read my words as trying to tone police anyone, or if you do read that in them, ignore me, of course.

We all see what you mean, Maisy. Considering how many times you have said it we cannot help but see what you mean.
If you wish to perform for an audience that is your right.
Please respect the judgment of the women here and stop harassing us.

MaisyPops

I genuinely think that women's anger does make certain people disregard what they say.

Angry feminist, bra burner, women's libber, feminazi, etc.

They all conjure up the same picture.

However, you can't tell women to not show their anger, on that basis.

It's a fact that women not being angry doesn't improve their chances of being listened to.

You may think it does. But I disagree.

The only reason I might check what I say on here is mainly so I'm not deleted. It's a complete waste of time writing a post that's going to get nixed.

Also, it's just my personal style of writing

There are many women here who find a profound relief in expressing their anger.

And none of this really matters. The fact is, you can't tell other women how to talk.

You can make suggestions. But that's it.

years, NOT YEAR

Over the year I've been here, I've only recently gravitated to Feminist Chat. It the most calm, thoughtful and respectful part of MN IMO.

If you're not angry about this issue, then to my mind there's something wrong.

It really pisses me off that, to some people, a woman's anger instantly discredits what she says.

Co-signed. If women are not angry it is likely because they are not paying attention.

My guess is that we need all women in this fight - those who are uncompromising and direct as much as those who wish to be inoffensive and treat everyone with kindness.
We absolutely do need a broad range. Tjat's why I'd mentioned that it's worth being aware of how things are debated.
Not saying for one second that it should be all frills and glossing over the issues, just trying to say that it's perhaps worth being aware that when some posts start to stray towards mockery of trans people / intentional misgendering that might put people off who are on the fringes.

Do you see what I mean?

There are very nice regulars. ItalianGreyhound comes across as very sweet and kind and tries hard to be understanding. Datun has self control to rival the Dalai Lama. There will be people for whom that's the tone they need to hear.

And then there will be those for whom what they need is LangCleg reminding them that class is relevant to a lot of this, or thebewilderness sharing experience that goes back to the second wave (and that's left her unwilling to suffer fools patiently) or Rosenberg's firm and unyielding setting out of radical feminist principles (and lack of patience with misogynistic bollocks).

Different voices reach different people. When someone wants to limit the voices that can exist because they think that what works best for them is what will work best for everyone that just demonstrates a lack of perspective.

It's not about tone policing or.expecting women to be lovely and cuddly all the time (I hope that's not what anyonr takes from it), but more that we need more women to see the problems.and join the debate. To me, part of that means maybe being aware of how gender critical feminists present themselves.

Is there anywhere women can talk without worrying about how others perceive their performance?
Have you thought how hard it is for women to stop "performing" for an audience of scrutinizers?
It takes years of unpacking our conditioning.
I understand that your expectations of women in FWR was not met the first time you came here but do you understand that your expectations were unrealistic? This is the condition of women's life. Failing to live up to other people's unrealistic expectations when women act like people.

MaisyPops

I respect your view and I respect that you wish to use a different tone to that from others on the board.

Reading through the thread, pp aren't objecting to you making the personal choice to be nice, they're objecting to you telling others that they have to be nice, too.

The pushback you're getting has a lot to do with this being an ongoing issue. My guess is that we need all women in this fight - those who are uncompromising and direct as much as those who wish to be inoffensive and treat everyone with kindness.

I mean, to be clear, people are going to make their own decisions about how they want to communicate anyway, but it would be great if they could do that without being scolded like naughty children, on a feminist board.

Also the constant TGLWGH has to be confusing as hell for newbies who'll have no idea what it means.

Thank you Thursday!

Note that Datun and I are polar opposites in terms of tone, and yet apparently both useful to newbies in our own ways.

So, Masie, like I keep saying, how about we let everyone speak even if they're not doing it the way you'd prefer?

Honestly datun it's not about it not mattering.
The implications are worrying for women and people should probably be concerned. Speaking to other women offline, they have concerns. None of them would descrive themselves as feminists (which i personally find sad. Feminism shouldn't have thr negative press it gets).

Anger doesn't discredit, but 'just telling it like it is, look I'm hilarious for calling a transwoman by their male name' type thing probably does discredit the debate.

In the aftermath of some of the crap MN put up with there were some really interesting threads and some were quite telling about how the debate is perceieved. To me at least it would be daft not to consider whether how people discuss issues is perceived.

to some people, a woman's anger instantly discredits what she says

Unless it’s a trans’woman’, of course. Then it’s a perfectly legitimate response. 😒

Makes it very clear why moderate, centre ground voices across the gender debate probably decide it's not worth engaging.

If a moderate, centre ground voice can't be arsed to engage, maybe it's because it doesn't matter to them.

I rarely sound angry on my posts. I'm seldom snarky or sarky. But I gotta tell you, it's really, really not because I'm not angry.

If you're not angry about this issue, then to my mind there's something wrong.

It really pisses me off that, to some people, a woman's anger instantly discredits what she says.

if a lurker saw these threads, would they see women debating very serious debates, or would they look at them.and think 'this isn't my scene, maybe it's best to leave them to it'?
Speaking as a lurker, who first found FWR via Active Conversations, and over the past few months has spent more and more time reading on this board, I would definitely say that (apart from debates on biscuits) I would definitely see these threads as women debating serious things. I would like to thank Datun, AngryAttackKittens, bewilderness, Erishkigal (apologies for any naming mistakes; trying to page back to namecheck just deletes my drafted posts, this is version 3) and everyone else who has contributed. I don't usually join in, as the other posters generally seem to be able to describe the issues much more clearly then I can; however as a direct result of FWR, I have signed the petition, written to my MP, and spent far more time than is healthy reading these boards. Thank you all.

Nobody is telling you that you can't communicate in the way that works best for you, Masie. What you're being told is that you can't control the way other women communicate. Which is a boundary that you should respect.