Your peaktrans moment for today! Top this if you can.

@CharlieParley thanks (my nick name is paranoid Pete!)

AskBasil that is so painfully true.

Italiangreyhound absolutely not directed at you at all. To me there's a difference between gently reminding people not to become hateful (or whatever) and being dictatorial about how we're allowed to express ourselves.

At the end of the day there's a report button for any post that breaks the talk guidelines. And where the screenshotting is concerned, I've seen plenty of them being manipulated so they completely distorted what the actual discussion was and I've seen things posted as proof of transphobia that were simply stating facts. In light of that I find it pointless to tone police to the extreme as it's not our tone they're objecting to, but our concern that self-id may impact on our rights.

"It got me thinking about how many women probably sit outside the debate, not getting involved, miss interesting pieces of reading (because mainstream media hasn't been brilliant and presenting women's issues) whilst actually being interested in some of issues."

You know what, most women sit outside the debate because feminism is uncomfortable. As soon as you get properly involved, you become uncomfortably aware of the compromises you're making, the freeloading of the men in your life, the exploitation to which you are being subjected, the number of times you have to bite your tongue and grit your teeth just to not be "that woman".

And everyone in your life is uncomfortable with the fact that you are so involved. It makes them feel defensive, irritated, resentful that you might be secretly condemning them. So they laugh at you and wind you up and make it very clear that this is not something that is valid or worthwhile.

I don't really think it's because women talk to each other, the way they want to.

Also, at a certain point the horse is long since dead and continuing to beat it isn't achieving much. It just makes people wonder why anyone would do such a thing.

who was stroppy

Sorry bout that.

Being serious for a moment, I think the lesson here is that just because a women is quite rightfully concerned about the overreaches of trans activism that doesn't mean she's necessarily a feminist. If the tone of a feminist space grates on your nerves that may be because you're not a feminist yourself. It may also be that your female socialization is tripping you up, and you may be able to get over that.

Or you might decide that you're not a feminist but this one issue is important enough to you that you're willing to talk about it in a feminist space even if that space isn't a natural fit for you, on account of you holding some rather sexist ideas about how women should behave. It's possible to work around that kind of difference in perspective. But probably not if your social skills are of the "insist that I'm right enough times and they'll eventually have no option but to acknowledge my correctness" variety.

I might be more willing to listen if anyone could point me towards any law change or culture change that was achieved through being nice.

The huge pushback that the MeToo campaign got is evidence that even with an overwhelming statistic of 11 million posts in under 24 hours, women were still disbelieved. Not listened to.

Making rape within marriage illegal, in 1992, had taken fifteen years. FIFTEEN fucking years of women asking, lobbying, campaigning, writing. No one listened.

Being nice might sound as though it will attract people to feminism. It won't. Because what feminists want is always awkward for society. It upsets the power dynamic that many people, including women, want to maintain.

It's only in hindsight that everyone goes well of course those laws are right and correct, dur.

If you want to be nice about feminism, it won't be feminism that you're attracting people to. It will be some kind of feminism lite. That will achieve fuck all.

Maisy, if you have a problem with pupils, sorry posters not agreeing with you, feel free to move away.

Angry my friend abhors Mumsnet for that reason - I think AIBU is just a logical place to gravitate to as there's always lots of posts. She thinks it's mental how they all lay into one another.

Before I recently started posting myself I'd been lurking for about a decade - I had other forums I posted on and simply didn't fancy joining such a combative site.

Never even looked at the feminist boards, not sure I was even aware they existed. So I was pleasantly surprised when I started reading them. Intelligent, articulate discussion of women's rights issues. What a welcome haven of sanity after AIBU and the parenting/relationship boards...

Different voices reach different people.

That's how I see it.

I'd been reading here for a few weeks before I posted. I had a handle on the regulars - who was stroppy, who was blunt, who was hardline, who wasn't, who was interested in what and who had specialist knowledge or activist experience to bring.

It's ludicrous to think that women's rights and any possible conflict with trans rights can be simplified into one feminist voice or one (unnatural to most) tone.

And anyway. I am here because I want to talk with other women about protecting women's rights, spaces and services, and the safeguarding of children.

I'm really not that fussed about who is nicer than me and who is stroppier than me. I'm really not that fussed if people who are reading think I'm the nice one or I'm the mean one. I'm interested in the conversations I'm having with other women and refining my thinking on the topics we talk about. If outsiders take something from it then that's great. But it's not my focus.

The funniest thing about the assertion that this board has too hostile a tone is that AIBU is a bloodbath in comparison, but apparently that's OK because not everyone there is a feminist. So, be rude as fuck, openly criticize others commenters, swear like a sailor - all this is fine as long as it's only women whose feelings you're not being careful of.

It's funny, you're exactly the sort of person I would associate with the words "tell it like it is". We're all different!

I'm not 'telling it like it is'. I'm saying my take on a debate.

Yet other women, according to you, are?

People have been telling Feminists that they are Feminisming wrong all my life and yet we refuse to stop. Fancy that.

I have pointed out that it might be worth thinking about how debates come across to people who aren't already involved in the debate
I’m gonna go for it coming across like a broken record at this point....

No Maisy, you're sounding like the teacher that you are. This thread is NOT your classroom.

Anger doesn't discredit, but 'just telling it like it is, look I'm hilarious for calling a transwoman by their male name' type thing probably does discredit the debate.

That's where we clearly differ. My hairdresser told me today her daughter was recently taught at primary school that if you want to be a boy you can totally become a boy, a proper boy like any other boy (reminded me of Pinocchio for some reason). And she asks me what do I think of this complete and utter falsehood.

And so we had a chat about what trans means today and crossdressers getting access to female spaces and places. The room was full of women of all ages, and when my hairdresser asked "who on earth could think that self-id is a good idea?" everyone agreed.

And we had a chat about Maria's court case and the judge telling the victim off for not showing respect to her legally male attacker by using female pronouns. Everyone thought this was complete and utter lunacy. I didn't even mention that the judge told Maria off for using the wrong pronoun for her attacker while her attacker was allowed to disprespect her by insulting her over and over again in court by calling her a TERF.

That completely epitomises the problem - women be nice or else. Men can do as they please.

And not one person there thought for a second that demanding that women pretend men can become women is right. They simply do not believe in gender identity, most have never even heard of the idea.

When these people know a transperson they will use preferred, reasonable (ie not made up) pronouns out of respect for the individual but not because they believe the fiction that a man can ever become a woman, but only because interpersonal contact involves all kinds of fictions and social white lies and this is just one more.

What I learned in that salon today is that if politicians ever stepped out of their bubble and listened to normal people, not the woke hipsters and brocialists that dominate the public sphere, they'd get a rude awakening. They can only hope women don't find out about this.

When I take part in this debate, I will continue to sex people according to material reality, not a quasi-religious belief system I do not subscribe to. You can no more force me to agree with creationism than you can force me to agree with gender ideology.

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged
Depends. I was absolutely put off contributing to feminism chats ages ago. As a first experience, it did confirm the reputation it has.

I spent a bit more time looking and dropping in as and when things came up on active and found it to generally be quite a fruitful place for debate.

It does seem to be heading back the other way though in places.

If that was all you were saying it would only have needed to be said once, Masie. Where we are now is you being unwilling to take no for an answer.

Did it ever occur to you that ‘being nice’ doesn’t work?
If women are not ‘into’ feminism, yet have the views of a feminist, who’s fault do you think that might be?
Who do you think has the power to portray feminism in such a bad light, that people are so put off they don’t even realise that they agree with most of it?
I’ll give you a hint. Its not women....

did notice that Masie is quite convinced that she has the authority to determine what would work best for everyone here. I suggest that reactions so far suggest that that's not the case
I haven't said what is best for everyone here.
I have pointed out that it might be worth thinking about how debates come across to people who aren't already involved in the debate.

No, I agree. So it's other women she's worried about being 'put off'. If they but stop for a while they'd see there's nothing to be put off of.

I feel like there's a narrative about this forum that bears absolutely no resemblance to my experience of it

leggere
No i am just explaining my point of view.

I notice Maisy doesn't have a problem being assertive or "telling it like it is" herself
I'm not 'telling it like it is'. I'm saying my take on a debate.

I did notice that Masie is quite convinced that she has the authority to determine what would work best for everyone here. I suggest that reactions so far suggest that that's not the case.