“Incel”

It's really tough IfNot. Because although we want to buck a trend- we don't want to make our own children's lives harder by doing it. Even if we think we're doing the right thing in the long run.

I asked in our local school fb group if we could have a general agreement in the class (which is p6 by the way) not to have smartphones and if children need phones let it be the old- type ones.
I fully understand why parents whose children walk to school etc want their kids to have phones- but give them the basic models.

The complaints from parents ranged from 'I dont want to have to pay for another phone.' to 'X won't be able to do everything he wants on that phone.'

Then the school announced a 'Bring your own device' policy- to save money on ipads for the school the p7s would be allowed to bring their own smartphones into class for research purposes.

So many parents think this is a GREAT idea. Because the internet is the future. Kids have to be technologically advanced etc etc.

Personally I think it's ham fisted. We have the option to sign policies at school not allowing our kids photos to be taken yet they're sending schoolkids into school with cameras.

I am of a generation that had MSN messenger after school and Myspace. The bullying/nonsense/shitposting that went on then was insane and that was before cameras and video were being welcomed into schools.

If I don't give my daughter a phone- she'll be the weird one. I want to scream because its actually the case that the whole system is weird and needs to be stopped!!

When I say I agree I mean in particular your 1st post.

I agree with you troll.
And yet....almost ALL my 12 yr old's friends have a smart phone, and I am an oppressive parent because I haven't got him one yet. And I won't get x box live. Not yet anyway. But can I hold out til he's 16? I doubt it!
It actually breaks my heart for him that he will inevitably be exposed to shit I couldn't handle as a grown up woman who has been around some stuff.
So what are parents going to do about it? Nothing as far as I can tell from my own little area. Head, meet sand.
I sometimes wish the Internet didn't exist.
(I would certainly get more done anyway!)

I agree that porn is a major factor. I also think that when we are educating our children about sexuality, sex and choices that the fact that it is an elective CHOICE is often overlooked.

Sex has become so normalised an activity- that it seems like everyone is doing it. Everywhere. On tv, in adverts, in porn, at school- wherever.
So to be told during sex education that this is universal information that will affect us all is untrue. We don't have discussions about long term celibacy. It's a totally legitimate choice and for some it is an involuntary choice.

If we're going to teach our kids the facts of life- lets teach them the actual facts of life.

And you know what they say about 'fat, middle aged women'?

You should be having sex with them. Because of your 'reduced' curb appeal, rather than keeping your body for yourself- you should have sex with an incel. As it's their human right. And if you don't do so it's because you're a snooty uptight bitch who thinks she can get a 'Chad' (classically good looking man.)

There is no thought there as to whether you are a lovely person, fun to be around, whether you want to be celibate, what your choices in a partner would be and if you're gay it is because you are being a bitch and denying men of their birthright.

It is the most disrespectful, dehumanising thing. And they've been talking about women on the internet like this for YEARS. It is literally a culture within itself with it's own jargon, in-jokes and codes of practise.

I still thing a massive percentage of the growth of this kind of attitude in young men is due to porn. There's a whole generation who were sneakily watching hardcore porn on their phones from long before they were old enough to actually have sex, and it's created all sorts of ugly, hostile attitudes towards women on a scale that hasn't been seen before.

I'm scared for the young women who're encountering those young men when they try to go out and form relationships, and glad to be old enough that even if DH and I ever split up I wouldn't have to deal with that generation of men.

It is fucking scary. I'm not laughing.

I hate the idea that anyone is entitled to sex or romance from anyone else. It's really creepy. It needs calling out any time anyone hears it. If people are not interested in me because I'm fat or middle aged, fine. No one is entitled to sex or romance.

It is all too easy to laugh it off.

But as parents (as many are on this site) there is the very real possibility that our disenfranchised teen is one of these.

How many posts have we seen on here in the past referring to tween/teen porn misuse, young girls conforming to ridiculous ideals of sexuality coming from porn, the language some young boys use towards their mothers, sisters and other women.

Now, i LOVE gaming. But gaming seems to be one of those hobbies that young boys can be herded into. It's hard to say no if all their friends are doing it and we can kid on that it's a social thing because they can talk to their peers online - but in reality we are isolating them further.

For every kid that is able to have a laugh with their kids on fifa and then go out and hang out with mates there is another that is playing farcry and staying in all night- it is a lonely existence. They might not feel lonely because there's other people on the screen- but by being able to realise their social characters outwith a real life setting it means that they are not bound by normal social norms.

For example, if a group of teen boys are sitting in your local burger joint shouting at the top of their lungs about bitches and ho's or sluts they are likely to be asked to leave. Or they could be spotted by their neighbour who dobs them into their mum etc etc.

Online that is not happening. Their behaviour goes unchecked and is acceptable within this new audience. There is no fear of somebody telling their mum (a very potent motivator when you're a 13 year old boy-whether they like it or not!).

Schools are not set up to cope with this. Curriculum changes do not happen overnight. Teachers cannot be expected to take this on board.

As parents it is our responsibility to know what our children are doing. And if you don't know how the internet works (as many people have proven on Mn over the years by being oblivious to personal data, general terminology or the horror that is some ends of 4chan...) then you shouldn't be letting your kids anywhere near it.

Venting, not vetting. Please don't let these guys near any pets.

Agreed. On the rare occasions that men deign to acknowledge that this is happening they try to handwave it away as poor sad geeks vetting. That's not what's going on here. These are radicalized young men who've already proven that they're dangerous. Their beliefs can make for comical reading but they're just so absurd, but the next step after laughter should be "what are we going to do about this?"

Angry it is HILARIOUS and TERRIFYING at the same time.

We have a real problem with young men.

I actually think it's really easy for us to assume that this is a tiny minority, but the number of posters on these sites would suggest otherwise. Some may not be as bad as others- but this kind of logic is being spread around and I've felt that it's worth monitoring.

A lot of campaigns for body image in recent years have focused on women and unrealistic photoshop etc. I don't know if we've targeted boys in the same way or had the same success in reaching them.

These aren't guys who are conforming to the trope of 'The Geek gets the girl in the end.' These are guys who think they're above every girl and so should be able to do what they want to her as per their right as a male.

This is the second large scale terrorist attack by an intel. The first being Elliot Rodger. No doubt it will be explained away again as mental health issues.

But something else is clearly going on. The hate from some men is palpable.

It was an MN thread which alerted me to the comment by Laurie Penny: "Germaine Greer once wrote that women have no idea how much men hate them. Thanks to the internet, now we do". So bloody true.

Porn is overly accessible and causing unrealistic expectations (hot horny young women gagging for aggressive sex from any man).

And it's further normalised in popular culture. Can you imagine reversing the sex roles in films such as Knocked Up (fat goofy guy charms beautiful woman), or Man Up (old fella charms beautiful younger woman - despite being initially annoyed that she's not actually 24)?

What can happen to make things better? Or will it inevitably get worse?

It feels that rights for women are taking a complete nose dive.

Troll, that link! That is the funniest thing I've read in years. What sites has that man been reading? Do they mail you free crack when you sign up?

You don't see single women who are "incel" attacking men on the Internet and driving trucks at them do you

No... on another thread, someone linked to Caitlin Moran www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/caitlin-moran-asked-women-what-14575426

I think that these kinds of men have always existed.
I’m sure we can all think of someone we have known in the past at school etc that we have brushed off as being a bit odd.
The problem is that now they can all get together and conspire about the reasons that women won’t go near them and create this kind of group mind set.

You don't see single women who are "incel" attacking men on the Internet and driving trucks at them do you

I know bowl, the world is full of men who hate women. It's just hard to deal with sometimes, especially when, as you say, you only make time for the good ones.
And yes, even the good ones will never totally get it. My chap is decent. He would never describe himself as a nice guy (!), but has a pretty sound moral code etc.
The other evening it was lovely out, and ds and I decided to go for a little walk.DP was just in from work and was too knackered.
He said "OK, but...don't go through the woods will you?" I said we wouldnt.
Later I asked him if he could imagine what it was like to be restricted about where you can and cant walk, in your own locality, on a beautiful evening. (I did used to run through the woods, but I was fitter then and fancied my chances of escape better.)
He looked at me a bit blankly. Of course he doesnt understand. If he wanted to walk through the woods, he would just do it, without a fucking risk assessment or even a fleeting though for his own safety.
And I know that an MRA would likely tell me that if I were a young man I would be more likely to be attacked, and maybe so, but I would be a lot less likely to be raped and murdered in front of my child. And I know its unlikely, I do, but it's there all the time, the knowledge that there are some men who will attack and rape and maim and kill me because I am a woman and they are a man.
I feel like there was a brief moment around 1998 when men and women seemed to be kind of on the same page, and then the internet blew up..and now it feels like a war..[sigh].
Sorry. Rambling!

www.alexa.com/siteinfo/avoiceformen.com

Not a small minority if only one website has this much traffic. FYI a huge drop off from their former stats due to increased competition from other misogynist sites.

Ooh. Lightbulb moment. ..you're right!
I actually think most men are inherently fairly decent,

I think most of the men I know are decent. But then that’s a selected sample and I’m pretty intolerant of arseholes generally regardless of sex.
So if I’ve been in ‘my’ world I tend to be a bit more rosy.
Then something will pop up in the mums group I’m on about how hideously someone’s husband is treating them, or I’ll cross paths with the awful brother of a very decent male friend of ours, or I’ll turn on the news... and reality hoves back into view.

I’ve found myself pointing these things out to dh, who is genuinely one of the good ones. And even he still doesn’t see how rage inducing the headlines like ‘rampage triggered by rejection’ are until I point it out. He only saw the carnage, which I guess isn’t a terrible fault

I think he’s getting it. But it’s shown me that my lived reality is worlds away from his. Which in itself is an eye opener.

Incel language is often explicitly racist & they can be especially focused on interracial relationships. That element of racial panic is prominent in Elliot Rodger's manifesto.

Yup, the panic is rooted in the loss of status of the white male. Women gaining equality, people of colour gaining equality, god forbid women of colour gaining equality. These things are what threaten their world view.
As such they are a splinter group of the alt right. However, I agree with pp that they are uniquely focusing their hatred on one main group, which is women, and that needs to be named and brought into the light.

www.vox.com/world/2018/4/25/17277496/incel-toronto-attack-alek-minassian
Incel, the misogynist ideology that inspired the deadly Toronto attack, explained

Alek Minassian, the man who killed 10 people by driving a van down a busy street in Toronto on Monday, is a terrorist.

We know this because he told us so. On Tuesday afternoon, Facebook confirmed the authenticity of a post in his name, in which he pledged allegiance to something called the “Incel Rebellion.” This is not an organized militant group but rather an ideal developed by the so-called “incel” movement — an online community of men united by their inability to convince women to have sex with them. (“Incel” stands for “involuntarily celibate.”)

I'm in a headspace where I'm not really listening to news

if it wasn't for this forum, I would have no idea this was the reason for the attacks. But after looking online, it doesn't seem clear at all that this was what it was about....which makes me wonder if there are other people out there, watching TV news, and just assuming that other groups of people are to blame...is that possible or am I making a wrong guess?

Hello!
I often read this board but rarely post. However, I wanted to share this article, which I read yesterday, and was quite an eye-opener for me:

www.bodyforwife.com/incels-are-a-hate-group-promoting-rape-and-murder/

Incel language is often explicitly racist & they can be especially focused on interracial relationships. That element of racial panic is prominent in Elliot Rodger's manifesto.

YY.

I work with a nice guy (I wish I knew how to do that TM thing ).

He's great, gets it, totally understands our rants. He's buying a house right now with his DW who is a SAHP. His DM is putting some cash in as well. His DM will be on the deeds but not his DW! He didn't get why I thought that was awful. Even the good ones have privilege.