“Incel”

Thanks italian and troll

20 years ago I briefly had a housemate who was absolutely an 'incel' before the term was coined. He was so depressed and angry that women weren't interested in him. He used to write long letters to his GP and social worker, complaining that sex workers weren't provided for free on the NHS/by the council for people like him

He was utterly grim, no conversation beyond whining about being a virgin, full of scorn for 'normal' people, never washed, lived on junk food, didn't brush his teeth... He would never accept that if he made an effort to talk to women like they were human beings instead of reviled sex objects, he may have had an easier time finding a girlfriend. He took an overdose and left a long letter blaming evil women, the NHS and social services for his suicide attempt.

I felt awful but I was also very glad when he was evicted for not paying his rent (as he wasn't planning on being alive). I see him around occasionally, he still seems just the same but is middle aged now. I have no doubt he is on incel websites as he posted on similar newsgroups back in the 90s.

Hi, I'm new here (well, I'm mainly a lurker, but read the feminism board daily nowadays) and don't want to derail - especially if this has been said before in the past - but one of the Twitter links upthread led me to this article that I found interesting, about a link between masculinity, 4chan, anime and how it might lead some young men into feeling like they might be trans: medium.com/@rftbk/masculinity-anime-and-gender-dysphoria-8d682abcec54

Wow that's really informative, thank you troll. I guess it isn't just white men then.
Its not just porn SGB but it can't help, can it?
If you are a happily married man with a social life, and you look at porn once in a while, you can keep it in perspective, but for a shy young guy who is a virgin it has got to be having a weird effect on how he thinks of women.

I think the sheer size of the US and it's population can skew our understanding of where incels are based. Certainly I'd argue that it seems to be easier to be radicalised in the US (judging by the terrible statistics on school assaults.)

There is 100% an incel contingent in the UK as a hierarchy of regions of women and the likelihood of them allowing you to have sex with them was bandied around fairly recently. (It was extremely Classist. I am sure you can imagine exactly what was said. It was not particularly imaginative.)

I think Porn is a factor but one of many. At the end of the day these are disenfranchised young men who are prime targets for right wing rhetoric.

Although they consider themselves superior by having recognised the (make-believe)conspiracy that is ruling the world of sexual politics- they clearly don't seem to understand how prone to manipulation they are.

Don't let's be too quick to blame it all on porn, when the US is crawling with rightwing Jeezus-jumpers whose attitude to women is every bit as toxic.
The ones who are trying to pass ever more restrictive laws on access to abortion and contraception, for instance. Several of them are equally enthusiastic about making it harder to get rapists convicted (at least one forced birther tried to change the law on sexual assault so that the word 'victim' was replaced throughout with 'accuser'...) All those republicans pursuing underage girls. All those proposals to criminalise drinking of alcohol and prohibit certain jobs to women of childbearing age in case they might be pregnant.
Sure, misogyny is a worldwide problem, but it's particularly virulent in the US.

Troll my mind is blown by that information. Some people have way too much time on their hands and need hobbies and to interact with people in real life and form proper relationships. Sitting at computers ranting about "cels" seems very unhealthy.

@rufustheconstantreindeer

It is generally believed that there is no such thing as gay incels as if you are willing to allow your body to be used for sex (as a woman would) then you are likely to find a hookup although no long term relationship prospects.

It is acknowledged that gay men can be very shallow, but ultimately men will shag anything.

It is debated within the community a bit but that is the general consensus.

@Ifnot... it's not confined to only white men as currycels show that this is spread throughout asian communities too.

One particular gripe is that of so-called 'race-traitors'. Asian women who prefer caucasian men and so leave 'currycels' womanless.

There's also the belief that caucasian women are not interested in minority ethnicity men. Most good looking black men or asian men are explained away as being 'whitewashed' as they conform to western ideals of beauty.

White men and women seem to be at the top of the hierarchy although it is acknowledged that particularly uglycels who are white have no chance. (Contradictory obviously.) Hispanic men are deemed most desirable after 'Chad's' (typical all american style attractive caucasian male.) A Tyrone is a 'Black Chad' who would stereotypically have a large penis.

It's not just misogynistic- it's inherently racist as well.

The alt-right use the sheer venom and desperation of these people as a recruiting tactic - promising to try and curb immigration etc and thus making the chance of 'race-traitorism' less likely.

I know that usually I am among my people on MN... but on the offchance that anyone is going to be riled by what I have written above- this is ENTIRELY NOT MY VIEWPOINT. I am merely attempting to fill in the blanks for people to show them what we are up against.

@TrollTheRespawnJeremy what's that saying, when men tell you who they are, believe them!

@italiangreyhound that is exactly the kind of things that they say on their forums. The main one was deleted by reddit this week.

I think people have never heard of it because it hasn't affected them directly before. It's a fairly newish terminology and if you are over the age of 30 at the moment- unless you're a bit of an internet nerd- chances are that you won't have come across it or the people who use it openly.

To be honest I don't think anybody took them (incels) seriously prior to these attacks either and just assumed it was people spouting shite into the void.

Well you do get gay men very upset because other gay men don't fancy them. I'm not sure why they do not date each other but I am guessing there is a beauty hierarchy much like in straight relationships. I've been told by gay men it is even greater on the gay male 'scene'. I have no idea if it is the same for lesbians.

But any group of people moaning because they don't get sex is in the wrong because no one is owed sex. It's not a human right.

Really sorry if this has been covered

But do you get gay incels?

Im assuming its not a thing because I haven't heard of it

Incel/PUA/porn/TRA are all just different forms of misogyny. The common thread is that they think women owe them, and any women who disagree deserve to be harmed.

Indeed.

The more I think about it the more I really agree that the problem with these men (not just the terrorists but also the daily mail comments type of misogynist) is the perceived reduction in status of the white male. White men are still on top, but a lot of the less economically or socially successful ones seem to feel that everything has been taken from them. It's so odd because it's not based in fact or reason at all. Just pure entitlement.
There's a reason no school shooter/unabomber type has ever been a black woman.

What can we do? As the mother of a young man I talk to him about stuff like sex, consent, porn and the fact that it may not be consensual, violence against women and how much stronger men are physically.
So far he seems to get it. He has female friends, he watches women's football and admires the players skill, he knows women are people I think.
I also try to talk to him about masculinity-I have talked about his uncles who are football loving techy/mechanic types and pointed out how daft and soppy they are. I have told him that I have seen DP cry and that men are allowed to be soft. I constantly remind him that he doesn't have servants..
And yes I restrict the unsupervised Internet, and feel exactly like you troll that parents DO NOT GET IT, and neither do schools. Our school has a load of "policies" on online bullying but allow devices in school. And yes angry it does provide an excuse for phone shaming kids who either don't have the best phones because their parents can't afford it, or who actively want them to have an dumb phone. So you are left in this no win situation of make your kids feel like the only freak or give them the damn smart phone. Unwinnable.

Incel/PUA/porn/TRA are all just different forms of misogyny. The common thread is that they think women owe them, and any women who disagree deserve to be harmed.

What can we do about it?

Well to me these things only flourish when society turns a blind eye. Think about drink driving/seatbelts - yes they were legislated against/for but what really drove uptake and behaviour change was a swing in how society perceived drinking and driving, or not strapping your kids in the back. I remember my stepdad being mocked for fitting seatbelts in he back of our car and him being determined to do it because it was a safety thing.

The rise of the incel movement to me to such a degree shows that there is insufficient opposition in wider society. You’ll always get fringe groups. And then the web makes it easier for those people to connect. But you dont get big groups unless the attitudes in them are widespread or tolerated in society.

So the alt right - I’m afraid trumps victory shows you that a significant number of people believe in, or don’t actively dislike, the ideas contained within. There’s no point callingvthem fringe loons when there are so many of them, you’ve got to start asking how and why so many believe that.

And the same goes for incels - most decent men may not be on the same scale of delusion and hatred for women but you only have to read the DM comments under any article about feminism to get a sense of just how widespread a degree of hatred for women is. So again, society at large isn’t ‘against the idea enough’ to make it socially unacceptable.

When idea are truly beyond the pale groups retreat to niche spaces on the web in small numbers. But when it’s the end of the bell curve of something a lot of people believe anyway it’s a different matter.

I’m afraid I agree with the Greer quote above.

So what can we do about it? I don’t know. Raise our boys to be decent? Shine a light on the ideology in the media? Until it’s seen as societally unacceptable it won’t go away.

@AngryAttackKittens I 100% agree porn is to blame. I'm glad too I am middle aged and won't need to deal with this but I have a daughter and I can't imagine how she would cope.

@TrollTheRespawnJeremy where is it said fat kiddie aged so.en should 've sleeping with incels? Luckily, I'd probably crush them to death so won't be needed. I wonder why they don't just learn to form proper relationships!

"It is the most disrespectful, dehumanising thing. And they've been talking about women on the internet like this for YEARS. It is literally a culture within itself with it's own jargon, in-jokes and codes of practise."

I heard about it through Mumsnet about 6 months ago. Before that I never heard of it. Why?

The question is, what can we even do about incels? We can't ban the online spaces where they congregate (and even if we could they'd just make new ones), and their beliefs overlap with those of several other groups of misogynists. They clearly attract large numbers of disaffected young men, and the more time those young men spend talking to other "incels" the more extreme their beliefs become. Which isn't a thing you can really stop.

What about when they're actively planning crimes, though? Eliot Roger talked about what he planned to do in incel forums before he actually did it.

I really think male violence is getting to be a crisis.
Calling attacks "terroris" means the focus is on the politics behind it rather than the common factor of angry young men.
I'm also not very happy the victims are being called people not women. It obfuscates the dynamic.

Still, R4 did a whole segment on incels last night so perhaps understanding male violence is going to become more mainstream.

Esker, it's an interesting article, but ultimately I think they credit 4chan with far too much.

Much like here, 4chan is a place where all manner of things are shared and discussed. From funny memes, to politics, to pictures of pets, gardening tips, sex chat etc etc.

Sometimes they do hilarious things; like rigging online competitions for where Justin Bieber should do his next concert (North Korea) or it spawns the best selling card game of the decade (Cards Against Humanity)

There's also a side of it which is Grim- it's gory, porny and talks about all those things that naice ladies on MN don't talk or know about like DOXXING, making omelettes with semen (I'm not even kidding), mock bomb threats and sometimes real bomb threats. Or admittance to murders (All true.)

Some incels might be on 4chan. But it is not incel specific. It is a total shitshow of a website and not for the faint hearted. There's some great stuff there but also some really terrible things that you can never scrub from your brain. Definitely not suitable for young people. (Yet some idiot parents let their 13 year olds on it because they dont know what it is.)

Moral of my ranting is: We are the parents. It is up to us to know what our kids are doing. Just because the online world is not physical- it doesn't mean it cannot harm your children. If anything it is MORE harmful as it is able to reach out to them in the safety of their own homes.

We need to be so much smarter about how we educate our children.

Haven't rtft but I came across this article about 4chan today in amidst all the coverage of the incel movement and found it very interesting:

medium.com/@DaleBeran/4chan-the-skeleton-key-to-the-rise-of-trump-624e7cb798cb

It is. But the school will have devices on supply apparently for those who don't have.

If it was all being done on school devices which were locked down and unable to transfer messages/pictures then I'd be more ok with it.

But to allow free reign on personal devices with who knows what on them is just plain stupidity. (One of the best regarded primary schools in Scotland as well.)

Isn't that bring your own devices policy absolutely horrible in terms of singling out children whose parents aren't as well off and who therefore won't have devices/the same kinds of devices as the kids from wealthier families?

Also when I complained at a school meeting about the bring your own device policy they said that my worries about inappropriate material being shared in school were unfounded and that I should attend a group to chat about kids and internet usage and how to restrict settings.

I KNOW how to do this. But I am aware that others don't or won't or just don't care. I am actually not worried about how my daughter uses the internet because she has had it drummed into her be me and doesn't get to use it unsupervised - what I am worried about it other kid's attitudes to the internet and the effects that it can have on my daughter.

I cannot control what other people's children do- or how they parent. Already you have kids under the age of 10 playing war games like Call of Duty that are gory and bloody and stressful. They might be desensitised to it- but they shouldn't be and my child isn't.