“Incel”

There have always been a lot around of men who cannot get women and some men who get a lot of women. These sorts of men tend not to be a huge problem as they tend not to be very competent at much anyway although the odd one might go on a killing spree. 5 of my grandfather's brothers never married nor had children (and his 3 sisters for that matter). The idea everyone has some kind of right to be attractive to the opposite sex or even that they should settle down and marry (plenty don't want to) is wrong.

We certainly need to watch out for these types however if they plan to damage women in whatever ways rather than just hiding in their bedrooms or having a moan at the pub with their friends. If they really want a partner they can find one. it might not be the top model like perfect woman they think they are entitled to but there will be someone for them if they get on with it.

I watched with horror the other day as Matthew Wright did a segment on "should men have a say in abortion" where he argued in his snotty sixth form way that it is unfair that men have to pay for a child they didn't want..so, what? Forced abortion? Or forced birth if they want the child?

Yup. 'Cos that's where the choice is for men. God forbid they actually weight up consequences before putting their penis in a woman. That might interfere with their god given right to sex.

10 years ago barely anyone had a phone good enough to watch porn. It's also become seen as normal that men watch it, like it's a natural part of being a man.
I do also agree that religious extremism is very harmful to women, and that men seek to control women's bodies for reasons other than porn. I watched with horror the other day as Matthew Wright did a segment on "should men have a say in abortion" where he argued in his snotty sixth form way that it is unfair that men have to pay for a child they didn't want..so, what? Forced abortion? Or forced birth if they want the child? Either way it's terrifying that anyone would even want to consider that, but there it is on daytime tv ffs.
From both ends of the spectrum too many men are seeing women and girls as property and/or objects. I am definitely seeing a lot of things differently as I mature. Well, age anyway
I think I have been radicalised by the Internet.

Religion is definitely, or can definitely be a bad influence - but I really do think porn, the modern extreme abusive stuff that’s so prevalent now, is a massive issue.

It’s not just the content, it’s how accessible it is. I’m on my phone now just having a cuppa and knitting but should I wish to, I could access in a few clicks things that would have required a trip to a seedy shop even ten years ago.

And those phones, that access, are everywhere 24/7.

I’ve seen men watching hardcore porn in cafes Ffs, with the sound up. It makes it less ‘illicit’ and less likely to be confined to one time in the persons day. It’s ever present. That normalises it even more. So all this really violent against women material is just there, as easy to access as me checking the bbc or the bus timetables. The normalisation of that cannot be overstated.

I’m sure religion interacts with that to make it even more toxic by introducing Madonna/whore complexes and sequestering women. But porn in and of itself is a huge problem.

I wouldn’t have said that ten years ago. Maybe I just wasn’t as aware of it.

So they blame a factor that can’t change (height, looks) because that absolves them of responsibility.

I think it's because they imagine that women think the same way they do. Psychology studies show that men on average place far more importance on a prospective partner's looks than women do.

I definitely wouldn't wish these men on any woman.

Religion is a far, far more toxic influence on woman-hating men than porn. Incels and MRAs tend to hate porn. (If you can stand it, look into the NoFap stuff - incels rejecting porn in order to... make themselves more muscular and appealing or something.) Several of the early MRAs were Jeeezus-jumpers and liked to fall back on their imaginary friend's insistence that women are subhuman and should be the property of men, compelled to obey, and there's still a strand of that running through the manosphere. MRAs are also violently oppposed to sex work and sex workers (have seen quite a bit on my social media from sex workers angry at the suggestion that incels should 'just pay for sex'; the sex workers don't want to have to deal with unfuckable hate nerds, either, and having them as clients would be immensely dangerous for any sex worker.)

It is desperately unfair sweetheart - it’s also not under your control. Nothing you can do, no improvement to yourself (not saying you need improving!) would make any difference. It’s not your fault, and yes, your feelings of rage are valid.

But these men can change - they just don’t want to. So they blame a factor that can’t change (height, looks) because that absolves them of responsibility. It absolves them of looking deeply into themselves enough to make an improvement.

So the difference between your situation and theirs is that 1. You aren’t running people over and 2. There genuinely is nothing you yourself could do to change it - you have to rely on outside factors.

I agree greyhound

Although the cynic in me says that foot binding was abolished so that women could be fully enrolled in the workforce, and that the recent reforms in Saudi are the same - it’s not that women are suddenly respected more, it’s that they've realised that to modernise the economy they need women to participate in society fully.

Stil, once those women were out in the fields, are driving and participating we should see more societal change flow from that.

It was the war that I think made huge strides forward for women in this country.

Also agree completely that these guys blame it on their looks and that is a massive cop out. They do that because they can’t change it, whereas they CAN change how they react to women they just can’t/won’t.

The men I’ve dated (and married) have generally been the geekier type. Whatcattracted me was their intelligence, personality and decency- looks are a nice extra in my book.

Rufus

10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/6kkeni/theerulesoffmisogyny/

I'd say Adam's comment covers a number of the other rules.

I understand what you mean sweetheart. Infertility can really mess with your head, especially when you see others getting what you want so easily.
The difference is that you have the self awareness to rationalise your feelings, but its an interesting insight.
Sorry for what you have been going through.

there is no acknowledgement that this is something women experience too

So true. My mum was single for, ooh, 20 years. She put her energies into gardening and helping people in the community, rather than mowing down men with a truck.
But older women should just expect to be celibate I suppose?

Great post Italian
Yes they do touch on porn in school but I also think it's up to all parents to also be honest with their kids. Although a lot of parents are also porn consumers, and I guess not everyone feels like I do on the subject.
I felt better last night after talking to a very old male friend about the whole thing. He used to be a porn consumer (not violent stuff though-he reckons you are either into that or you're not).
He said that he read and watched quite a bit about the porn industry and after opening his eyes to it he has no desire to view it any more. He reckoned it's been about 2 years since he has.
This is a man in his 40s, who didn't grow up with online porn, so I know 20 and 30 something men might be harder to get through to, but I was glad to hear that at least some men are becoming conscious about the industry.
Incidentally this guy is in no way an alpha male. He looks a bit like Steve Furst and has a regular job, no car, no money but he has had lots of girlfriends (including me years ago) and is in a relationship. He may not be your typical "fit bloke" but he is intelligent and funny and self aware.
My dp is the same-I think he's gorgeous but I know objectively he's a bit odd looking! When I first met him I was not attracted to him, but he was interesting and witty and by the end of the night I was...very interested!
It's so sad that these men don't realise that how you look is such a small part of what makes a man attractive, and also that there are tons of nice single women out there.
But of course, they are not interested in their female counterparts, just some media generated image of what a girlfriend might be like.

To be clear, I'm not at all saying those dealing with the heartbreak of infertility are anything like these foul men; the way they other and dehumanise women is abhorrent. I just speak from my own, personal experience - feeling very enraged and hard done by that I couldn't just have what I wanted, and more to the point, when I wanted it. I'm really sorry if what I wrote was insensitive.

Again, thank you all for an interesting thread.

To carry on with the "do what makes you feel good" culture touched on by Greyhound and others - the more I learn about feminism and toxic masculinity the more I am convinced that capitalism is at the root of a lot of it.

Being very honest here, I have tried for a baby three times. The anger and indignation and injustice I felt when someone else got pregnant was real. Of course I knew there was no "right" for me to have a child but I said on several occasions (in jest and to friends going through the same thing) that I wish you could just order on Amazon. Obviously I know that there would be enormous moral arguments against this and if push came to shove I would fight to prevent such a service becoming available, but that "I am a good person so I deserve what I want when I want it and it's desperately unfair to make me wait" gut feeling was there, and it was ugly. Because of this, I can see how men would feel the same about a girlfriend, and that the culture of commoditising women combined with access to porn could reinforce those feelings and manifest as jealousy and anger.

I thought the article was very good

I certainly didnt feel offended on behalf of my beautiful boys

She wasnt NICE seems to be the general comment about the article

Wheres thebewilderness ive forgotten the misogyny rules....isnt it number 10 ??something about making men look bad

Bugger, im going to have to try and find it now

@IfNot

"Why IS violent porn the most popular?
I feel really depressed about the whole thing."

To coin a phrase, me too.

I am sure there are reasons for this aside from men 's hatred of women.

Maybe if, as a man, you feel entitled to female attention and that woman on the bus won't even look at you, let alone talk to you (and why the fuck should she,, you go home and watch some other poor woman be violently raped and you think whatever sick thoughts you think and feel superior.

Not until society acknowledged that male violence and violently porn potentially affects us all, damages us all, will society collectively seek to do something.

I think we need academic research on male violence and incels, evidence of how porn in general, and especially violent porn, affects males and therefore society.

Who will do this research? Who will pay for this research? Will politicians listen?

The IT industry needs to get savy. To track it and stop it.

The law needs to get savy, to ban porn which violates and dehumanizes anyone.

Law needs to catch up to the crime that porn is and creates.

Things that give me hope are that China banned foot binding in a single generation because it realized it was wrong (they recognized it reflected badly on the nation, I think).

And as a society in the UK drink driving we t from being no biggie and socially acceptable by many to being widely recognise legitimately as a crime, in my generation.

IMHO. I think it would be helpful to link to any blogs talking about solutions. What we can do.

Does school teach about porn and its harm?

When we stop thinking about personal freedom to watch others be abused and start looking at the common good we might get somewhere.

However, it will mean making 'moral judgements' and I think those will not be popular in our current 'do what makes you feel good culture'. IMHO.

If what you've done so far hasn't worked, keep doing the same thing but with added whinging.

Oh Adam. You’re not actually a very nice man at all are you?

I stand by my assertion that no man who proclaims that they're ‘a Nice Guy™️‘ is actually a nice guy.

It seems to be code for ‘I think I’m great. Women won’t fuck me, but I’m not going to do anything as wet as self reflection to see if my personality is the reason why. It must be those frigid slutty feminazis who hate men and are raging whores throwing themselves at alpha males. I’ll just keep on as I am.’

Adam is a bit oversensitive, isn't he?

If "men" is to be taken to mean "men like Adam" then growing old away from them is what I hope for for all women.

His comment that he hopes she grows older in isolation from men, delivered like a curse, is so telling.
On the one hand, it seems to acknowledge that older women are often in this same boat. Ie Single without power. But there is no acknowledgement that this is something women experience too. Ie not getting what you want.

There is only hatred. He wants janice to age in isolation from men. Older women arent really women to incels. And the same for ugly women fat women disabled women. The incels only view young slim attractive females as Women.

Wow. At the comment from Adam Miller. Article very compassionate towards these incels or zeta men.

I thought that was a very balanced and fair article. Thank you for sharing.

Comment from Adam Miller is THE one:

It's a rare article that is as hateful as this. Reading it produced a queasy feeling; nausea turned into sadness and anger.

In my anger, I wish that her sons will grow to resent her and that she will age in isolation from men. I hate what she's written, with a passion, and I wonder whether this might be why she wrote it.

This is no longer 'victims of misogyny seeking justice', it has become a dark, contemptuous, subtle destruction.

It's a low point for men and women both, and a low point for this newspaper.

Janice Turner in the Times today writing about incels.
Some of the comments !!

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/self-hating-incel-men-are-the-new-jihadis-5rz37h9s9?shareToken=b2703d3c1044481d1c4eb8231451d036