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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

“Incel”

238 replies

Scribblegirl · 24/04/2018 18:29

Just come across this horrific phrase in the context of the Canadian attacks. I’ve always thought I was relatively aware but this completely passed me by.

Does anyone have any background resources they can share on the phrase/“movement”? Not sure I can face some of the murkier sites my first searches found.

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 30/04/2018 01:27

One of my all time favorite quotes in response to the friendzone complaints of self styled nice guys is "Women are not machines you put kindness coins in until sex falls out."

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 00:41

If relationships with people who we disagree with were off-limits I'd have to stop talking to certain family members on the basis that they're The Enemy, which would be a bit inconvenient (and would upset my dad, since they're mostly his family).

ReanimatedSGB · 30/04/2018 00:37

I also get very tired of groupthink and echo chambers. I've always had friends with whom I disagree about stuff and, even though we might get exasperated with each other and sometimes rule certain topics off-limits (temporarily or permanently) we still see each other as people not The Enemy, and we are still aware of each other's good points.

ErrolTheDragon · 29/04/2018 14:47

irony in thinking that the answer to a lack of women willing to have sex with you is to kill women, so that there are even fewer women available

I suppose it's at least in part due to envy, a dog in the manger attitude - if they can't have a 'stacey' they don't want a 'chad' to have her either. Punishing everyone else - but of course the women directly.

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/04/2018 14:40

The tribalism and demonisation of ‘other’ groups is something I’ve noticed too. In politics it’s dreadful. When I hear (and I’m afraid the left do it more) things like Tory used as a term of abuse my heart sinks. I have never voted Tory but ffs they’re a mainstream political party, not some fringe loon right wing nazi job. If you can’t connect with someone who has a very slightly different, but still mainstream political viewpoint to yourself then you’re screwed.

I’m also homeless politically, more in the sense of having no one to bloody vote for than wanting to belong to a group. Recent labour misogyny and behaviour has left me thinking that actually none of the buggers have a manifesto I’m happy with. And I consider myself generally centrist but slightly left.

I’m not really a group person if I’m honest Blush and your post is indeed very interesting because it flags up a few reasons why I feel that way. I find the narrowness of a lot of it off putting. I find he insistence on closeness and intimacy offputting. O find the thought policing offputting. I’ve never had a ‘group of besties’ and I’m wary of any group that claims to be Doing It All The Only Right Way.
I mean you even see this in parenting now - you can’t just give a baby food, IT MUST be BLW. You can’t just be nice to your kids it has to be attachment parenting.

It is like a bunch of cults and it’s a narrow way to live.

IfNot · 29/04/2018 10:58

That's really fascinating Red especially regarding people who socialise mainly online blocking out anyone who doesn't toe the party line. A lot of young men have definitely become more "remote" in the way they socialise, and the ability to personalise all their entertainment (eg You Tube) means that they are rarely bothered with anything that doesn't chime with their world view.
I think this is a problem nowadays for a lot of groups. I know Labour voters who wouldn't speak to someone Tory, much less a UKIP voter. The tendency to demonise other groups can flourish when you don't have to interact with anyone "outside".
These hate nerds just seem to have stalled somewhere in the entitled outrage phase of a 14 year old, and, maybe because they never "go outside" they haven't gone through the normal development of self awareness that most people come to.

ohfortuna · 29/04/2018 10:55

irony in thinking that the answer to a lack of women willing to have sex with you is to kill women, so that there are even fewer women available
Indeed they're not thinking long term but reacting out of emotion.... the desire for revenge and retaliation, like a toddler screaming that it's not fair and lashing out

ohfortuna · 29/04/2018 10:48

However some men will and can and do hurt women in their desire for sex
I would suggest that they are acting out of a desire to dominate (so as to bolster their masculine status) and to vent anger and hatred as well as out of a desire for sex

Irishfeminist · 29/04/2018 10:29

Delighted to see Catherine Bennett on board, I was just going to post that link. Well done for joining up the dots, other commentators have real trouble with that.

Italiangreyhound · 29/04/2018 10:19

"But of course, they are not interested in their female counterparts, just some media generated image of what a girlfriend might be like"

This

SimonBridges · 29/04/2018 10:16

Thanks for the guardian link. Interesting that they included ‘terfs’ in the whole debate.

Reading that made it clear to me. The use of the term ‘feminist’ in TERF just goes to show how women hating it all is. If they were truly concerned with just trans rights then they would be as bothered by gay men who won’t sleep with trans men and by the men who don’t believe that trans men are men.

Italiangreyhound · 29/04/2018 10:08

"See what he says about putting all this effort in but not getting a return. It’s like the see women as machines. You put some effort / attention in, get sex out. Not even human. Nothing about what’s in it for her."

Yes it is sick. No wonder some men are excited the sex bots are coing

StringandGlitter · 29/04/2018 09:53

What strikes me about that guardian interview with “Morpheus Manfred” is that this guy is getting first dates. So he is at least ok enough for women to meet him in the first place as a potential partner. The fact that all of them ‘flake’ doesn’t give him pause.

Obviously something about what he says or does makes them back off and I’m not surprised they don’t tell him why. But he assumes it’s their fault all of the time. He must be very red flaggy to put off all women after a first date.

See what he says about putting all this effort in but not getting a return. It’s like the see women as machines. You put some effort / attention in, get sex out. Not even human. Nothing about what’s in it for her.

Italiangreyhound · 29/04/2018 09:47

@SweetheartNeckline the desire for a baby is a very normal biological desire built into us to continue our species . The desire for sex is a very natural biological desire built into us to continue our species.

However, a very big difference is that you would not (I feel sure) wish to hurt another woman in your desire for a baby, and certainly would not hurt (I feel sure) a baby in your desire for a baby. However some men will and can and do hurt women in their desire for sex.

R0wantrees · 29/04/2018 09:14

Catherine Bennett writes,
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/29/violent-misogyny-not-confined-to-internet-incels
(extract)
"In the days since the Canadian man murdered 10 people, a good deal of attention, including glossaries of special terms, has focused on the peculiarities of “incel” online behaviour. Here, the standard misogynistic repertoire – “you deserve to be raped”, etc – is ornamented, a bit, with coinages such as femoids. But actually, so what? To many social media users, neither the language nor the sentiments expressed in posts such as the one above, however far along the woman-hating continuum, are likely to look radically out of the ordinary.

Apart from anything, Jack the Ripper, who would now be the toast of angry celibates, had the disembowelling idea 130 years ago. And further demonstrating that misogynistic tropes are by no means the monopoly of resentful male virgins, curators at San Francisco library are currently staging an exhibition featuring a display of dissident-silencing weaponry (axes and bats) and other hate-advertising artefacts.

Photographs of one vitrine, featuring a red bespattered T-shirt reading: “I punch terfs!” (trans-exclusionary radical feminists/women who disagree with me), may have struck a chord with anyone following the current UK debate about the government’s self-ID proposals. To date, threats, from one side, which echo, inescapably, some of those in the pro-Rodger playbook (“die in a fire terf scum”) have yet to generate comparably widespread concern, even after a woman was punched. Her assailant had earlier expressed the wish to “fuck up some terfs”"

LangCleg · 29/04/2018 09:10

RedToothBrush

I absolutely agree that online communities and/or identity politics are taking the place of religion in increasingly secularised Western societies.

We do need social glue as a species, I feel, and I think the atomised lives led by people in increasingly technological societies also adds to this. It's another reason you find identity politics taking a stronger hold in cities than it does in small towns and rural communities, which still maintain that real life social glue and so don't require alternatives.

GnotherGnu · 29/04/2018 08:45

There's a degree of irony in thinking that the answer to a lack of women willing to have sex with you is to kill women, so that there are even fewer women available. But then intelligence is presumably not these men's hallmark, I'm guessing.

RedToothBrush · 29/04/2018 08:33

Don't get me wrong. A lot of communities are great, healthy and supportive and can do good.

I have been part of online communities longer than most. I started in 1997 and met people long before it was socially acceptable. I have retained several friendships for nearly that long. I met DH through one.

Its just there is a real dark side to it too. One that a lot of people have no knowledge nor experience of and are only just beginning to see.

The idea that only weirdos can be online radicalised is wrong. Its not just happening on sites which support Islamic terrorism, and we really need to shake this mentality.

SimonBridges · 29/04/2018 08:23

Very interesting and well written post Red. I’d never thought about these online communities taking the place of religion.

RedToothBrush · 29/04/2018 07:41

Re: religion.

The internet and social media are spawning identity politics. A lot of this is due to a lack of a sense of belonging which in the past close local communities and religion often provided. As that has broken down, people have looked for that sense of belonging in online communities, by finding other like minded individuals. The communities that have developed, have social hierarchies, conventions and often their own unique vocabulary or phrases that have sprung from 'in jokes' or ideas. The shared experiences of these communities make some very insular. People within them share very personal information so other members often know more about someone than real life people. The intimacy is part of sense of belonging.

From there it doesn't take much for a community to make a jump from something which is healthy to something which is cult like and can turn rather sinister. Communities which are inward looking tend to be competitive, with various individuals and their supporters all trying to outdo others in a bid for power. The rules are set by the community consensus or moderator. In groups where there is no moderator, the only thing which controls the group is the groups tolerance and self moderation. The more extreme the group, the less likely there is for self moderation. Attempts to get others not in your clique to self moderate are difficult to launch as such individuals are deemed a threat to another's power. Its all about being 'right' and 'winning' an argument rather than having any context or sense of reality.

It tends to push things to extremes. I've seen online communities pretty much implode. The results are not pretty at all. Doxxing is more widespread than I think people realise. There is a sense that law does not apply especially when communities are international. No one knows who is really responsible for criminal harassment and even when the police are involved, they tend to be powerless and the emphasis is on the harassed individual to leave the community rather than action be taken against offenders.

The effect the effective expulsion of an individual has, is to embolden those who forced it, and to give them more power and influence within the group. Unrest and opposition to actions is silenced. Members take the view that it is better to shut up and put up than no longer belong and to lose all the emotional investment and friends they have gained. People repeat what others have said and eventually stop questioning it as they become radicalised. Questioning is viewed as personal criticism because an attack on the group is seen as an attack on the person as their own identity is so interwoven into the fabric of the group through their sense of belonging. The unjustifiable become justifiable in the name of preserving the group. The indefensible becomes defensible in the interests of the greater cause.

As a rule communities with female members tend to moderate themselves better. Simply because women are socialised to defuse situations and stop them from escalating out of control. This can also work against women as they become seen as obstructive and often almost shields for male rivals.

The same patterns repeat over and over. Under the right conditions, communities become like religions. They lack plurality and they do act like cults. In some cases they become so ingrained into the mentality and psychology of a person that I do think religious belief in certain things like incel ideology does exist.

Its no coincidence that gaming communities have experienced problems earlier than other communities.

On twitter you see the fostering of these communities through echo chambers. People who only follow the same people who hold the 'correct' beliefs and shut out everything else are most vulnerable to it. Imo, the Labour party has actively developed a problem along these lines. The TRAs are another clear one. Nigel Farage developed one. Its all over the political spectrum and its getting worse not better. The issue is they are extremely difficult forces to control once they get out of hand.

What I find interesting here on MN is so many expressing a sense of political homelessness and lack of belonging or tribal loyalty. I personally find that somewhat refreshing and a bit of a relief. But it also troubles me too...

thebewilderness · 29/04/2018 02:17

@Rufustheconstantreindeer

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.
5th rule of misogyny: Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.
7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the "real reasons" for everything women do and say.
10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.
11th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men.
12th rule of misogyny: Women's ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.

ohfortuna · 29/04/2018 01:49

sex workers don't want to have to deal with unfuckable hate nerds, either
unfuckable hate nerds should just have sex with other unfuckable hate nerds
some incel on incel action would surely be the best bet for these chaps :o

SleightOfMind · 28/04/2018 21:50

It’s a real challenge, DS1, 17, is my PFB so has grown up in the internet years.
We’re close and talk a lot and some of the stuff he’s come out with has been quite upsetting tbh.
I think we’re getting there now ( helps that DH is very on board. We’ve got a DD and two little DSs too) .

4Chan and Reddit are very scary. I think most DCs do instinctively back away from crazy IRL or OL but, if they’re unhappy or struggling, it’s right there waiting to suck them in.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2018 20:21

It's worth following Mike Wendling (Twitter @mwendling ) from BBC Trending. He was interviewed on Woman's Hour segment about Incel/Manosphere etc & also referenced in Zoe Williams' Guardian Article
www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/25/raw-hatred-why-incel-movement-targets-terrorises-women

"It is part of the “manosphere”, but is distinguished from men’s rights activism by what Wendling – who is also the editor of BBC Trending, the broadcaster’s social media investigation unit – calls its “raw hatred. It is vile. It is just incredibly unhinged and separate from reality and completely raw.” It has some crossover with white supremacism, in the sense that its adherents hang out in the same online spaces and share some of the same terminology, but it is quite distinctive in its hate figures: Stacys (attractive women); Chads (attractive men); and Normies (people who aren’t incels, ie can find partners but aren’t necessarily attractive). Basically, incels cannot get laid and they violently loathe anyone who can."

KERALA1 · 28/04/2018 16:59

That's the thing I find odd - that these men feel entitled to have sex with someone like Kyle Jenner or similar and will accept nothing "less". I remember troll like boys at school being absolutely scathing about any girl less than model perfect. I am sure if they cheered up abit they could go out with a normal girl - their equivalent - but only Cindy Crawford in her prime is acceptable.

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