Tom Daley in The Times "trans women athletes have to have testosterone levels which are often lower than natural female athletes, so it's hard to compete"

It’s interesting, to look at this via a view of the hierarchy of the patriarchy. You’ve got the straight blokes at the top (I won’t complicate it with race and class but those feature too), followed by the gay blokes, followed by the trans identified males.

We have a society that has accepted homosexual males (for the most part, or at least likes to be seen as accepting them) and likes to parade around their views as an indication of how tolerant and open those at the top (the straight blokes) are. We have the gay bloke who has kinda lumped himself in with the trans identified males but sees himself as a bit elevated, and so wants to show how tolerant and open he is by offering the foot up to the trans identified males.

At no point do any of them actually consider the women (straight, gay, or trans identified). Funny that. It’s always about the other men.

Tom lost my interest when he decided women’s bodies can be rented for his personal whim. What an utterly self-entitled prat.

Sadly we're in a post-fact world. If someone famous or a newspaper says something; then it must be true.

Tom is incorrect.

"In 2015, the IOC changed their regulations to include trans women in the women's category of events if they remained under the testosterone levels of 10 nanomoles per litre (NMOL/L) a year prior to competing, as well as during competition.

However, a CIS female (a born female) can reach nowhere near the testosterone level of 10 NMOL/L. The average female sits at 2.8 NMOL/L and the average male 23-25 NMOL/L. This means the likes of Hubbard competes at three times the amount of testosterone to other weightlifting females."

www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/99434993/professor-of-physiology-says-trans-athlete-has-advantage-in-speed-and-power

It is willfully naive to imagine that a lot of countries would not take full advantage and field trans women athletes at international level in order to boost their medal tally. The old eastern bloc countries had no qualms about masculinising women in order to achieve sporting glory.
That leaves the others with no choice but to follow suit.

It is the inevitable outcome of his view.

I hate to be mean. He's lovely and all that; but not over-endowed with brains

I think he's young and naive. But if you're young, naive and male, magically you're worth listening to. About something that doesn't affect you.

He hasn't had the time or life experience to talk about this. Let's hear from some women athletes alive when the woman was pushed at the Boston Marathon. Women who competed against East Germany during the height of their 'issues'. Women with experience.

And the argument that intersex women like Caster mean that anyone with higher testosterone should be allowed in is infuriating. Once again throwing intersex women under the bus.

Agree LangCleg. Why is everything now 'very complex', gets on my nerves. It is actually very very simple - segregate by sex.

Tom Daley is an amazing athlete but he always comes across as so immature.

Ceinwen2 if there was a very small, slight, elderly old man playing golf, with excellent interpersonal skills, would you suggest that they also play on the women's team? Would that be the morally appropriate thing to do?

It is a very complex matter.

No. It isn't. Most sports are sex segregated for very good reason. End of.

Women's sport is already disadvantaged in status and funding. There is no reason whatsoever to disadvantage it further by including males.

It is a very complex matter. It seems as though it isn't, but sometimes it is. I know of someone who plays quite a good club standard at golf, and plays for the ladies team. They all know about her, but as she is elderly, and very small and slight, and became who she is a very long time ago, and has excellent personal skills, somehow no-one seems to mind. If she was a 6 foot four, only half transitioned, muscled type who could whack the ball for miles, ,and was a bit of a pig to boot, and gave "mansplaining " orders all round, would she be as accepted? Morally the situation is the same .

there aren't enough transsexual women about to form their own team or league

They should be welcome to compete against their own sex - there are plenty of leagues and teams. In those leagues and teams, their drug regimes will disadvantage them in the same way that diabetics and other people are on drug regimes that disadvantage them.

Everyone has a right to participate in sport. Nobody has a right to win.

"What do you think, because tbh there aren't enough transsexual women about to form their own team or league. "

Well, we don't have numbers, or a count of how many transpeople would come forward for such a league.

Even if there were tiny numbers, this still doesn't mean they should take over women's sports! Why should women lose out just so that transwomen don't?

The world has gone crazy.

is it equally unfair, do you think, if a transsexual woman joins such as a hockey team, or local ladies football team?

Iranian women's football team. Eight men, four women.

www.gadoo.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/17.jpg

I think women should be able to play sports fairly at every level and trans people need to sort out the implications of their choices without inflicting unfairness on women.

As I posted earlier, not all Transgender people are happy about transsexual women competing with natal women. On ethical grounds., The fact that the majority of transsexual women would always be beaten soundly by the best female athletes doesn't change the moral situation. Stronger bodies ( despite the quite dramatic loss of strength that usually happens when testosterone is removed from the situation will matter in most sports. An example is discus, where lengths of " levers" is crucial.Many other sports are the same, in that having once had a male development will give an advantage, however marginal that is. In many cases, tbh , the issue is not as crucial as it might seem. Talent will tend to override such things. But again..... it just ain't fair. Question; if it is not fair in weightlifting or pole vault, is it equally unfair, do you think, if a transsexual woman joins such as a hockey team, or local ladies football team? What do you think, because tbh there aren't enough transsexual women about to form their own team or league. And transgender covers such a wide range of people.

PositivelyPERF
So the Kiwis that your relative knows are quite happy that women are losing to natal men in sports
It was an interesting conversation as she went from the position I described, that Hubbard was competing within the rules etc to being a massive fan of peachyyoghurt's bicycle/sofa analogy very quickly and then talking to friends. Its only anecdotal but in part, it seemed a lot of the support for Hubbard comes from the perception that attacks were personal (so not fair) and also that these came from outside of NZ (this is particularly as issue for Kiwis if from Australia!).

NZ would be a laughingstock if Hubbard won everything going, up against - and towering over - 20-year-olds. The blinkers seem to be on though, blinkers that say 'a win is a win'.

And this is why it's problematic to have professional sportspeople at all. Tom Daley has done something harder than most of us will ever do, for years, but he has lived a skewed and distorted life where he is always at the centre and his needs come first. If you live that life for ten years plus it's bloody difficult to grow up IMO and see other people as perhaps having needs that could mean yours won't be met. See also footballers, rugby players (in Ulster and elsewhere) etc.

We used not to have that many professional sportspeople but twenty years ago decided to buy more Olympic medals. I wonder what kind of father Tom will be to a completely dependent and demanding new baby that disrupts his life and training.

So the Kiwis that your relative knows are quite happy that women are losing to natal men in sports? Women’s happiness being sacrificed in order to please men. No change there.

NZ was 100% behind the 'fairness' of it
I had a really interesting conversation with a Kiwi relative. She started from this position since it was fair for Hubbard to compete within the rules
The strength of New Zealanders' support of national sporting teams and individuals is well-known.
Those who criticised Hubbard were viewed (I think) primarily through this lens.
There have also been individuals in public life who are also transgender for quite a long time & my relative felt that in general Kiwis were more accepting.

I no longer believe that sporting bodies believe it's fair. They just don't care. That weightlifter being allowed to compete against women was the giddy limit, but NZ was 100% behind the 'fairness' of it.

please can we have that "Lo, a man has appeared" cartoon now?

Your wish is my command

www.mumsnet.com/uploads/talk/201408/large-991536-behold.jpg

We need that on tshirts.

And just another example of society's expectation that women should be content with a walk on part in men's productions of The amazing story of me

Oh this sums his attitude up so well.

please can we have that "Lo, a man has appeared" cartoon now?

I love it so.