The Angels Forum

sapphire you're being patronising to the wrong "side". The TRAs are the ones trying to change everything - women's spaces, women's sport, the very definition of woman. They are the ones who need to come up with sound reasons and evidence as to why this will be beneficial to all. Their mindless, nonsense TWAW chant doesn't come under that and they appear to have nothing else.

When I first got involved in this I would have been happy with a compromise and finding a peaceful solution that disadvantaged the fewest people. Now, however, with the only acceptable solution for the TRAs being total capitulation I've chosen this hill to die on.

We show time and time again why we need the separation we have. We shouldn't even have to do that - we should be able to say it's ours and you can't have it #nodebate. We are met with threats and violence (proving why we need women's spaces). How on earth can you suggest we are in danger of losing humanity and make references to genocide? How dare you!

Like the TGLWGH plopping, in telling us to see both sides (when we can, clearly) and telling us to find our humanity you're relying on our female socialisation to "be nice" and you're trying to manipulate us to back down.

The thing is, the rights we are expected to back down on aren't ours to give away. They're our daughters, our nieces, our granddaughters and our goddaughters. We only have custody of them on their behalf and we have to keep them safe for them.

The idea that we all just have to listen to each other, be compassionate and find a compromise, sound wonderful. But in reality, what would that look like, which group of people will be making the compromise?

Adult males who don't want to be seen as men have needs and wants, but that doesn't override the needs of women to be able to name themselves and the issues they face. Adult human males do pose threats to women and girls, therefore female people need spaces away from male people, not only for safety but to talk about our lived experiences.

SwearyGodPervert

I must say that Angels is a forum I’ve avoided for a long time. I found it a very toxic environment.

Jay I’m disappointed, having only read your posts on here I thought you were sound.

Now you it’s sounds like you’ve been a victim playing narc.

The difference between 'transwomen are women' and 'sex-segregated spaces are necessary because men are threats' is that the second claim is theoretically coherent and robustly evidence-based.

and yes, of these two statements:

• transwomen are women
• humans cannot change sex (which was my Spartacus comment)

only one is demonstrably untrue.

when you hitch your wagon to a lie, your ideology is in trouble.

Ah. as usual I go to bed and all becomes clear. Sweary.

And the Spartacus chant is not "separate by biological sex because all men are threats". It's "men are not women". Which is true, and yet we're not supposed to think it. Because "transwomen are women" which everyone in the world knows is a big fat lie

The idea that we should be able to reach some sort of compromise with people who want to strip women of their rights is just bizarre.

Yes, it is. What sort of compromise were you thinking, sapphire? And given that most TRAs appear to have no compassion or empathy for women at all, where do you expect it to come from?

The idea that we should be able to reach some sort of compromise with people who want to strip women of their rights is just bizarre. No amount of empathy and sympathy is going to convince women to set themselves on fire to keep trans warm.

Lol not Roderick, I meant sparticus! I think I had that monty python sketch in my head when I read it, I have no idea why, I'm not a great fan of it.

My expectation wasn't that someone would say that they weren't necessary, it was more along the lines enquiry - how would this help? or could this help? How compassion and empathy would help both sides, hearing what people have to say and being listened to and valuing what they say.

It's so difficult with disagreements, I try so hard to bring people together and bring harmony but I've found that some people just aren't tuned in at all.

I was wondering if you had any ideas or experiences that might help?

Ok, I'll bite, what's the Roderick thread? Please do a clicky-link. I read these boards every day, and haven't seen the Roderick one yet. I'd love to check it out.

I'm sure it does exist if you say so. I have no idea what it was about at all.

Regarding you other point, I'll say again that do you really expect anyone to say that compassion and empathy aren't necessary?

Well it existed, and you'll find plenty of threads saying the same things. I was asking you about it because I was interested in your perspective, I'm not scolding anyone!

No, I have no idea about the "Roderick" thread.

Do you really expect me to say that compassion and empathy aren't necessary? No, you're just chiding me.

Waddlelikeapenguin

You are very kind. I am concerned about how the non believers will be punished.

Sex segregated spaces were instituted so that women could participate in the public sphere. The first public toilet for women in London was burned to the ground by men.

So the problem with your comparison of extreme positions is that one is true and the other is not. Unless of course you want to argue that male violence is a non issue.

"no-one chants the second one" - remember the Roderick thread?

I was wondering what you thought about compassion and empathy being something that could move things forward?

""Trans women are women!"
and
"Segregate people by biological sex because men are threats!""

Only one of those phrases is chanted as a simple trope that any discussion of is forbidden. No one chants the second phrase, and it's a misrepresentation of the many arguments for why there is a need in some circumstances for sex segregation.

But I'm probably just paranoid and carried away with ideology.

I think it's good that people read both forums, and go even further understanding each other above and beyond their personal schema.

From what I've read, seen and heard there's buckets of paranoia on both sides, with each side chanting simplistic tropes among themselves like:

"Trans women are women!"
and
"Segregate people by biological sex because men are threats!"

And the diatribe continues from there. Each inventing their own versions of shock and horror, their own ideologies. Both to me are like religions. I'll be courteous as not to cause offence, but I'm actually an atheist, and I don't belong anywhere.

When will it end? I don't know, it has been going on for longer than I've been alive. But I'm worried always that things will escalate, and I worry about people loosing their link to humanity by getting carried away with their ideologies / schemas. As a pacifist, I've read a bit about genocide and the various ways it happens even in the UK - like the way people with disabilities or who can't work were marginalised and dehumanised by the press.

Anyway, sorry for the heavy content. In the end I hope that compassion and empathy will win.

swearyG i clearly missed something

I love when thebewilderness posts the rules...its my favourite bit
mine too (& the can you codify belief)

We cannot let women be bullied out of this space. I know you are right but I really do not think the mods have the women's back on FWR.
Sweary, I am so sorry they did that to you. I have been seething over the narcissistic feed being provided in spite of what they did.

Sweary.

The main thing that struck me from the discussions on Angels was the absolute cluelessness about the levels and chronicity of male sexual violence and intimidation that women are subject to. They don't experience it so don't really believe (or think it matters, maybe) that we do.

Having said that, I stand by my earlier posts - we don't need to be defensive or to engage with unnecessary drama. Our arguments are strong and if we remain reasonable in the ways that we put them, despite all provocation, then there are no grounds for shutting us down.

Please don’t worry about me. I’ve become a lot more resilient since ManFriday blew up.

I hold MN forums in very high regard, I’ve said before that they kept me alive when my mental health was very bad (and it’s not an exaggeration). I’m buggered if anyone or any groups of people try to take it down and the TRA actions at the moment are a direct attack on this space and all the wonderful women in it. That’s not to say we can’t have opposing views (I’ve been ripped to shreds on AIBU, sometimes rightly and sometimes not) but people seeming to befriend on here in order to undermine us elsewhere? Nope, not having that.

Feminism chat needs to be kept going. If we have underhand behaviour, particularly around this subject, some people won’t feel comfortable here. We cannot let women be bullied out of this space.

The accounts in trans groups bear no comparison to those I hear in gender critical groups. It's like they are reporting on completely different events.

Because one side uses classic DARVO.
Clue: It is not the radical feminists. If you believe that 60-something women are violent antagonists, there is little hope of you ever seeing the truth.