The Angels Forum

Yes, right first time Havoc

Agree with you too!

Think you were right the first time

Arse again, I'm sure my original comment makes sense. . I'm going for a lie down

have seen few TIM, either here or on trans websites who don't want to redefine women to include themselves.

Arse, Who do want to redefine women

The issue I have is that, unless TIM don't think of themselves as women and female and are either willing to use male or unisex spaces or campaign for their own spaces, they are part of the problem.

I have seen few TIM, either here or on trans websites who don't want to redefine women to include themselves. It just seems to become a question of which TIM should be classed as women, rather than keeping women as a distinct class separate from all men.

I think the threads where some TIM are seen as women and others are not, is setting us up for critisism. There is a lot of judgements made about how and when TIM transition which is irrelevant - what we should be clear about is a women is an adult female human, how men choose to live isn't relevant to the discussion.

I don't want to derail but actually this is doing my head in. Women and girls in this country are being murdered in our hundreds and raped in our thousands every year, by men. We're sexually harassed and threatened at work and when we go out and on the street, by men. We're subject to coercion and abuse in our own homes, by men. Violent and degrading pornography and glamorised mainstream depictions of sexual violence visited on us by men are everywhere, training men to think that we are not really human and that hurting us is OK.

Where does this idea come from that we are being unreasonable when we worry about losing sex-segregated spaces, that we have no real skin in this game? Listen to what we are saying. Listen

^This. So much this. TRAs are re-writing the narrative to say that males are not a risk to females, and that female spaces are not required, or are transphobic, or that women can have penises and beards. It's making my head spin.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain

Excellent post.

I'm all for open debate. Good arguments deserve a hearing and poor / misogynistic / manipulative arguments deserve a hearing too, so everyone can see them for what they are

I'd say the misogynistic posts I've seen are a little bit more than "chippy" personally. But I agree there are some reasonable posters there.

Well, that may well be the case - I'm exploring it at the moment, like I say I'm taking an initial look right now. That there are misogynistic posts doesn't surprise me. I find it hard to go/read anywhere without the obligatory misogyny these days. It's the great acceptable hate in our society.

Just to add I don't disagree with Tallulah either. These things have been making me angry for years. Absolutely years of anger over the treatment of women means I won't alter my position on sex segregated spaces, my personal experiences mean I won't alter this position either.

That doesn't mean I'm not going to read more thoughtful posts elsewhere with empathy. Not that I'm suggesting you are saying this Tallulah (I was just mentioning your post as I share your anger).

I'd say the misogynistic posts I've seen are a little bit more than "chippy" personally. But I agree there are some reasonable posters there.

What About The Men, reluctant

There are some hot-heads, but there are also some calm, reasonable posters. I see they've sensibly closed down the Mumsnet thread now.
I think Jaycee was doing a very difficult balancing act between the two. She's right: the communication needs to be there, however hard some try to disrupt it. I'd be very sad if Jaycee were to feel she can't post either here or there. I hope she's OK.

I have to say I've been looking over the forum and so far I agree. There are some very reasonable posters there who (for example) share our dislike of those 2 hipster brick singing songs about kerb stomping feminists and they talk sense. We all know that any forum has chippy people who always want a scrap but they don't necessarily define a forum.

I haven't altered my position on biology or women's spaces but I'm interested and open to hearing more from 'the other side'. I'm going to read some more . @JayceeDove I hope you are ok and I hope you carry on posting.

I haven't looked over the whole forum so this is more my initial rather than definitive assessment, however, on that initial reading I've read some thoughtful posts on Angels (and some chippy ones).

Ok, I knew all of those except WATM?

Exactly Tallulah. Exactly.

It never happens
You’re paranoid
NAMALT
WATM
Women do it too.

Fuck off. When you’ve solved male violence then we can talk about whether maybe some spaces can become unisex. Even then though we can keep women only spaces for privacy and dignity if we want so the answer may well (probably will) be no.

Amen TallulahWaitingInTheRain

I don't want to derail but actually this is doing my head in. Women and girls in this country are being murdered in our hundreds and raped in our thousands every year, by men. We're sexually harassed and threatened at work and when we go out and on the street, by men. We're subject to coercion and abuse in our own homes, by men. Violent and degrading pornography and glamorised mainstream depictions of sexual violence visited on us by men are everywhere, training men to think that we are not really human and that hurting us is OK.

Where does this idea come from that we are being unreasonable when we worry about losing sex-segregated spaces, that we have no real skin in this game? Listen to what we are saying. Listen

sapphireflower one of the differences is that I have changed my mind as a result of some of these discussions on MN. And I still disagree with some posters on some things, and that's OK.

It's the difference between a cult which demands total obedience (and enforces even which friends you are allowed to associate with) and a discussion and debate - even a sometimes very heated discussion and debate - which moves the whole issue forward, and which tries to find solutions.

Jaycee- so very sorry that someone so thoughtful and brave should get such a lot of flak. Xx

If you don't think men are a threat to women, sapphire, then you are a. incorrect and b. not listening to women. If you acknowledge that men are a threat but think we don't need sex segregated spaces then I have to ask, does the cognitive dissonance lead to migraines?

What SwearyGodPervert said. I assert the right to name manipulative appeals to female socialisation when I see them. This tactic is not appropriate on a feminist board. I regard it as goady.

Well if thats the case they've been busted now by the sounds of things

This is at least the fourth busting that I've witnessed here. Difficult to address because an accurate description defies talk guidelines and disappears into the ether.

I don't like this!

I've been popping onto the Angels forum for the other perspective for some time, although I've never joined because I felt it was their space and I didn't want to intrude.

There are some hot-heads, but there are also some calm, reasonable posters. I see they've sensibly closed down the Mumsnet thread now.

I think Jaycee was doing a very difficult balancing act between the two. She's right: the communication needs to be there, however hard some try to disrupt it. I'd be very sad if Jaycee were to feel she can't post either here or there. I hope she's OK.