The Angels Forum

molton works for me usually as well

Hear hear lang

I thought it was obvious this person was using certain threads as mememe validation/'special laydee treatment' material and to thereby shut down discussion around the trans topics.

Its a pattern that repeats itself over time and over different message boards and different TI non-women. I did wonder if JC was Kim who used to post here because it was the same MO. I think once you recognise the pattern it becomes obvious and enraging/sickening depending on your mood at the time.

I'm not sure how I missed Sweary's post I must not have read the thread properly for which I apologise. I'm not happy if that is true and Sweary was targeted like that. The fact is that above all things I centre women in my politics and support them against things like that. So I'm sorry that happened Sweary and er, I'll read the whole thread better in future.

I highly recommend laziness to combat this - when someone posts a wall of text about their personal experience which is completely unrelated or purposefully derailing to the conversation I just cba to read it.

Well, it appears the women along with me who supported JC have been given a real bloody nose.

Does it matter? This isn't really about JC, you know? It's about raising consciousness among ourselves so that we can recognise patterns of behaviour and be aware of the ways in which our female socialisation kicks in to make it easy to manipulate us.

Look at it this way and you'll realise that a forum member behaving badly here has actually done you a favour in helping you along the path of feminist awareness.

Seriously - don't beat yourself up. Don't feel bad. Don't check for updates elsewhere. You've got a great place to talk here and many supportive women around you. All is well!

Still reading this thread but reached this:
This isn't about calling out any individual commenter for not realizing that JayCee had form for acting very unpleasantly towards some women here. It's about the pattern, and the fact that it keeps happening. It doesn't happen with say TruScum or Pigeon because they don't expect to be centered in that way.

I honestly didn't realise this had happened. I still don't know - only what I'm reading here.

I think the thing which makes me so angry is that the TIMs seem to often be rather ordinary, even dull men (thinking of the many who are in the mainstream media - don't know any "ordinary" ones IRL.) They are not models, or TV presenters with any fame; they don't get Vogue front covers or long articles written about them in papers. They are just men.

Then they decide to become women. They don't think that much of women - they see women as being beneath men in some kind of hypothetical misogynistic pecking order. So, as former men, they see themselves as at the top of the pile of "women."

And the media validates that. And women are socialised to validated that too. We unconsciously give them room; offer them space to chat; apologise when their fragile egos are bruised by something.

In a world where people were recognised on merit it would be SwearyGodPervert or Magdalene Burns who was making a documentary on being a woman; not a TIM. But, transwomen are seen as sort of "super" women - the best kind of woman because they are men.

As you were....

JC has been a transwoman a lot longer than she's been posting on mumsnet. I don't expect her to cut herself off from online support, just play with a straight bat.

Well, it appears the women along with me who supported JC have been given a real bloody nose. JC Is back on angels.

Not the first or last time I'll say this: every day's a school day on MN

YY

I don't think anyone needs to feel bad or do any mea culpas

Also YY

Often, when TIM come on to Mumsnet all they do is show how very different our experiences are. Its harder than they think for women to relate to their experiences and them to ours

And this too.

I shall add nothing, just quote what has come before

Not the first or last time I'll say this: every day's a school day on MN

SwearyGodPervert, I took that post as a dig at me when I said few men treat TIM as women. I thought it was JC way of saying 'thats not true, men treat us bad too'

Often, when TIM come on to Mumsnet all they do is show how very different our experiences are. Its harder than they think for women to relate to their experiences and them to ours.

I don't think anyone needs to feel bad or do any mea culpas - whether because they've been a bit blunt and ruffled feathers, or because they fell for a bit of the old narc manipulation.

Not the end of the world. We learn. We help each other. We move onwards and upwards with more awareness and understanding.

I think they call it feminist consciousness raising!

Nope Sweary I was baffled until you explained

Reluctant it’s not about everyone agreeing and making it an echo chamber, it’s about staying (mostly) on topic.

I don’t want to single out JC as others do it, but I had a thread about why TIMs show such hatred for us, which was during my 15 minutes after the ManFriday swim when I’d had another TIM selectively quote me and ridicule my experience of male violence. JC was fairly kind, and when there was an audience told a long, sad, totally irrelevant tale of how their boyfriend had denied all knowledge of them being a TIM when they were cruelly outed. This was nothing to do with what we were talking about, and had no relevance to any part of the conversation. It was about getting attention and being feted.

If they’d disagreed, and used examples of their lives then it would have been appropriate. They didn’t, they wanted fawning and attention. And I fell for it. And was paid back by being talked about as “the Mumsnet feminist” on Angels.

Debate and conversation is great. Plopping and centring yourself isn’t. Which, due to female socialisation is what I feel I’ve done on this thread

What's funny is that so many people don't seem to realize that that socialized tendency to soothe ruffled male feathers, punish the woman who ruffled them, and restore harmony by preventing any further ruffling is a huge part of how TRAs were able to create the situation we're dealing with now.

Yes yes yes.

I object to being used for narcissistic supply and am certain it is not a dynamic that leads to healthy debate. I assert the importance of women naming this dynamic when we see it.

Absolutely agree.

Great post at 11:40 LangCleg, really sums things up for me.

I have somehow managed to reach the age of 41 as a feminist in name only. I'm still figuring out how all this works.

LangCleg Thank you. Yes, like I said last night we live and learn. I certainly am. I wish I had seen Sweary's posts but until last night I genuinely didn't know.

It's partly a conversation about narcissists, and how to deal with them. Especially when they're male and know how to use women's socialization to extract maximum narcissistic supply and obedience. There's overlap with the trans issue because narcissists are overrepresented in that community, statistically speaking. And also overlap with female socialization and how it impacts how women respond to manipulative behavior from men.

Not all trans people are narcissists, and the ones who're not we can discuss things with in the same way you'd discuss issues with any other person.

continuing to make me feel bad isn't helping as I feel guilty enough as it is

Don't feel bad! Just notice the dynamic and, if you agree with the analysis, watch out for it going forward! All is good!

(I have twice tried to point out this dynamic and been modded for it. Hence my very careful and impersonal language in posts on this thread. It's hard not to sound a bit snippy about it though! I've seen Sweary point out what had happened on at least one other thread too.)

AngryAttackKittens No, it's not about me, but I was part of the group of women who supported JC. I feel I have to explain why I did and I will.

ReluctantCamper For me, yes. I didn't know Sweary has been a victim of JC, hence why I apologised to her. I had stuck up for JC because I believed she had been a victim, I apologised to Sweary once I realised she had. I didn't know she had until she said on this thread. I would NEVER had stuck up for JC had I known earlier about Sweary.