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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Max testosterone level for trans athletes to be halved

242 replies

EmpressOfJurisfiction · 22/04/2018 07:24

Open access link: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-athletes-face-tougher-entry-rules-in-female-events-wrrmm7vcz?shareToken=49299dde905a975d619c3b6b581b4b38

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thurmanmerman · 23/04/2018 17:02

TerfinUSA exactly!! Women don't just want to participate, they want to compete !! and that needs a level playing field that allows fair competition.

Sarkyharky · 23/04/2018 16:47

That football player was 33! Not surprising that she wasn't as strong!

Lancelottie · 23/04/2018 16:45

I don't understand why you need to be addressed specifically in order to comment, Ratty? I never expect anyone to know who I am and invite my comments, I just dive in.

TerfinUSA · 23/04/2018 16:44

The FA doesn't publish a testosterone level, what they say is

"results in blood testosterone within natal female range"
"Blood testosterone within natal female range for an appropriate length of time so as to minimise any potential advantage
"Hormone treatment to be verified annually "

It's not at all clear that the number in that Vice article is accurate or consistently applied. The subject of the article is playing at a low level, and it's not obvious to me that it would always be applied that way, especially if a player challenged them, as presumably you could argue that some higher level was still within the natal female range (irrelevant though this ultimately is). If you look at other cases like Hannah Mouncey, I guess this could have gone a different way.

www.thefa.com/-/media/files/thefaportal/governance-docs/equality/lgbt/the-fa-policy-on-trans-people-in-football.ashx

So I don't think we should say that the FA is more stringent, because tbh it's left very vague, and I believe that any attempt to be more stringent than the IOC would be open to challenge

RatRolyPoly · 23/04/2018 16:40

Oh good, we're getting onto schools! But I have to go get the dc from nursery now :(

RatRolyPoly · 23/04/2018 16:39

Well, that's not what I think Maryz, but by not directing that comment to me you're clearly not interested in getting to the bottom of it or seeing where our similarities and differences might lie.

I'm not sure the point of your post really, other than to convince people I'm not a worthy source of interesting debate, and of course you can hold that opinion. But it doesn't really make for much of a contribution to debate, so seems mildly disingenuous to me.

But such is life.

I've said on other threads that the very top and the very bottom (i.e. school sports) are the pinch points for inclusion are require special considerations, not really covered broadly here. But most of sports participation is in the middle ground.

If you ever fancy talking those through by all means address me specifically. I'm happy to discuss and be right or wrong in whatever measure is appropriate and hey, we might actually get somewhere :)

Maryz · 23/04/2018 16:39

Lancelottie, similar for schools - it seems boys just have to say "I'm a girl" (in some schools at least) and they are in Hmm

Lancelottie · 23/04/2018 16:38

OK, I was interested enough to look at the British Unis and Colleges Sport guidance, which includes the splendidly muddled phrase 'Does this student have more physical capacity than is possible for anyone of their gender?'

Maryz · 23/04/2018 16:37

And the last link - yet again, decisions made on testosterone levels alone.

It's time to decide - is it only testosterone levels that should be measured or should we consider going back to [siob] segregation of sport by sex ?

One or the other. It's impossible to regulate for a wishy-washy in between. There has to be a dividing line - is is XX vs XY or Under 5 vs Over 5?

Lancelottie · 23/04/2018 16:35

it won't matter how easy it is to get GRC, it will still be equally as hard to qualify to compete in sports.

And as I mentioned above, for at least some university sports teams, that's not hard in the slightest: in fact you just need to say 'I'm a woman'.

Caveat: I don't know how widely this applies to university teams.

Maryz · 23/04/2018 16:34

I think there is a difference between competitive sport, where sports men and women win medals, major competitions, and money (either in the form of direct payment or sponsorship or scholarship).

Rat's quote "Women's sport is a sporting institution, and was created to further the fundamental sporting aim of inclusivity - allowing as many people to participate as possible" - shows that she isn't interested, as many sportswomen are in the competition element. She appears to think that women should just play for fun and therefore shouldn't mind being beaten by anyone else (including men).

She's also happy to trust sports governing bodies to make the "right" decisions on fairness, which is really odd as it is quite clear that when it comes to "trans inclusivity" it's crazy for women to trust any institutions (including the government) to make a decision to prioritise women and girls.

But there is no arguing with RatRolyPoly, it's like wrestling jelly. She talks round in circles asserting she wants fairness, then demonstrating that the only fairness she is interested in is letting anyone compete in women's events who wants to.

lostlemon · 23/04/2018 16:34

As others have said, anyone who knows anything about sport and training knows that focusing on the testosterone levels alone is ridiculous.

It is evidently now ok to take drugs to compete in sport. Inclusion and encouraging people into sport should be by sex alone.

RatRolyPoly · 23/04/2018 16:28

((I said 1nmol earlier - it's 1.5)

  • at least it was at the time of this article. Disclaimer: article from May 2017. Shouldn't affect the context in which I've posted it!
RatRolyPoly · 23/04/2018 16:22

sports.vice.com/en_uk/article/vv95a4/what-actually-happens-when-a-trans-athlete-transitions

I'm linking this because it's something I read a while ago about a transwoman's experience of trying to qualify to play football under the FA's 1.5nmol rule (I said 1nmol earlier - it's 1.5). I found it interesting to hear her talk about what her doctors wanted her to achieve regarding testosterone, and what sport needed from her; that's to say the level was much lower!

Anyway, it's clearly a pro trans perspective article and does use the inflammatory "cis" word (sorry!!), but I found it interesting simply to get a bit of insight into what it actually feels like - as a sportsperson - to try and hit the criteria. It's really tough to find that sort of information anywhere. Hopefully someone else will find it a bit illuminating too, maybe.

IamXXHearMeRoar · 23/04/2018 16:20

Transwomen are not women.

No amount of messing with the data is going to change that and this whole reversal of the definition of a woman is incredibly foolish and of course excludes women and revokes the recognition and equality women have fought for.

There are only men's sports and mixed now, that's right. Women's sport is finished and it was really only just getting started. What next, do away with age qualifiers so teenagers can compete alongside younger children and see who wins all the medals and who gets injured?

RatRolyPoly · 23/04/2018 16:15

The bigger problem may be that if at international levels transwomen are seen completing then the expectation is that unregulated unmodified men who dont have dysmorphia but are transwomen under self id will compete too with none of the assessment.

This implies that if someone can get a GRC they can walk straight into women's sport without having to achieve the stringent participation criteria; is that what you mean?

Because that's not right; sports are specifically excluded under the GRA, so they have the right to set "discriminatory" criteria for transwomen that they don't set for other women, even if they have a GRC.

So it won't matter how easy it is to get GRC, it will still be equally as hard to qualify to compete in sports.

Apologies if I've misunderstood.

Once a governing body gets it wrong a few times then the records for women's sports will be unbreakable by (xx - sigh I hate having to specify) women in the future.

Well look, a transwoman isn't going to walk into sport and set a record right off the bat. They will have been competing their whole life, most likely, and I would expect they would at least be training whilst working to lower their levels and achieve anything else required of them. The criteria placed on them really are quite challenging to achieve, and by all accounts they really do have a huge impact on their performance.

That's not to say no records will ever be held by transwomen - because to me, why shouldn't they be? But what those records will be is not unbeatable, because you'd have to get it quite spectacularly wrong in the face of everything you know of a transitioning athletes performance for that to be the case.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 23/04/2018 15:52

Waddle I hope that helps allay any of your fears re: doping cheats.
It doesnt (but i do appreciate that you seem to be coming at this from a position of extraordinary faith in sports people/sports governing bodies which i dont share) because people who want to cheat will find a way & this seems like an easy way (especially while it's new).

Once a governing body gets it wrong a few times then the records for women's sports will be unbreakable by (xx - sigh I hate having to specify) women in the future.

The bigger problem may be that if at international levels transwomen are seen completing then the expectation is that unregulated unmodified men who dont have dysmorphia but are transwomen under self id will compete too with none of the assessment. (And those same men will be expected in the communal changing rooms.)

LangCleg · 23/04/2018 15:51

Inclusion policies - another misnomer popular with this woman-hating ideology. Inclusion policies to encourage trans people (or disabled people, or older people, or or or) into sport are highly desirable things. It's Orwellian for organisations to describe rule changes to disadvantage women to placate males as inclusion policies.

RatRolyPoly · 23/04/2018 15:49

Interesting post Bloodmagic. I know myself just how true much of your first paragraph is:

Fertile female athletes (even those on hormonal birth control) experience significant natural fluctuations in their hormone levels at each point in their cycle. Some days women are stronger and recover faster, some days they are weaker and recover slower.

My sport is too rough to compete in whilst pregnant, so I had a personal trainer for weights and resistance at these times instead. And oh my god does progesterone affect muscle recovery; you can really see it in stark contrast with the high levels of pregnancy, and it's so easy to then recognise that as something you've experienced to a lesser degree on a monthly basis for as long as you can remember.

RatRolyPoly · 23/04/2018 15:43

I did state when I first linked that article on this thread specifically that it was a bit out of date now

This is just completely untrue.

TerfinUSA I specifically wrote it when I first posted the article to JayceeDove.

Seeing as you didn't read the article I don't know what you want me to say in the defence of my posting it.

i'm glad though that you go on to say what it actually is you disagree with, and I do think your perspective is rational.

what there is is a lot of following of other people's lead in order not to be deemed the evil TERF sport.

Yes, others will follow the lead of the IOC and the IAAF, but take a look at those bodies and see whether or not they aren't actually the best placed people to follow.

They seem to me well funded, well supported, well staffed, with access to experts and analysis to inform their decision makers and with regular updates about scientific developments relevant to their sports.

Who would you rather sports follow to inform the inclusion policies?

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/04/2018 15:37

Yes men's sport has the usual churn of rules. Women's sport has this additional issue that men's sports just don't have to even think about.

Why is it that transmen can immediately compete in men's sports, I wonder? A single simple additional rule allowing transmen to compete on self-id, and men's sport can continue on as before.

LangCleg · 23/04/2018 15:32

There is no human right to be an elite athlete.

Millions of people are on permanent drug regimes for health conditions that mean they will never make it as an elite athlete. That's life.

How can women even become elite athletes if they do not progress from youth to grassroots to minor leagues to major leagues by competing against their peers?

Transgender people do not change sex. The integrity of women's sport hinges on single sex eligibility. No transgender males should be eligible to compete in women's competitions. Intersex athletes should be assessed on a case by case basis. Anybody - including the IOC - saying otherwise is committing to male supremacy in sport.

I'm not buggering about arguing over testosterone levels. The whole thing is a crock of shite and anti-woman.

RatRolyPoly · 23/04/2018 15:32

It's bullshit nature for the most part I think Assassinated, that men's sports might appear that way. Until such time as science can find a way to make transmen super human, or indeed mean transwomen don't so significantly reduce their performance in their transitioning.

Trans aside though, men's sport in my sphere does has seasonal rule changes, adjustments after trials, things deemed too unsafe etc. in practice. So it's not like one has all this changing going on because of trans and the other doesn't; both are engaged in this cycle of assessing fairness and rule adjusting after the event. And even in women's sports it's arguably the transwomen who are most affected by all the rule changing.

Bloodmagic · 23/04/2018 15:25

Does anyone know the best way to contact the IOC? I would like to send them a letter touching on the following points:

As an amateur female weightlifter I know how much the female body effects training. The fact is we are only just now starting to learn the differences between mens and womens bodies due to women being excluded from sports, science, and sports science for so long.

One major way is that women are not able to train on the same schedule as men. Male athletes (including transwomen) have relatively consistent hormone levels and are able to undertake basically the same training routine week after week. Fertile female athletes (even those on hormonal birth control) experience significant natural fluctuations in their hormone levels at each point in their cycle. Some days women are stronger and recover faster, some days they are weaker and recover slower. Some days they need more food intake, some days they need less. Some days the body runs better on carbs, some days it runs better on fat. This is my own experience is backed by modern science. The effect of this is that to train optimally women must match their training and their food intake to their cycle, and the idea that it can be replicated by requiring a male to have a certain limit to their testosterone is absurd, degrading and offensive. It's reminicent of the ancient assumption that women are merely smaller, weaker men.

Another major impact on weightlifting especially is that women have to have a higher body fat % than men just to be alive (specifically, about 10 percentage points higher). Male athletes can safely achieve 2% body fat, but that would be dangerous and unhealthy for any female athlete to attempt. This is due to the fundamental differences in body structure and it is my understanding that it is not significantly influenced by hormone levels.
What this means is that all other things being equal, an 80 kg man will have about 8kg more lean muscle mass than an 80kg woman due to inescapable physiological differences. This obviously gives the male an advantage in a mixed-sex competition divided by weight class. In a fair mixed-sex competition 80kg male athletes should be competing against 90kg female athletes so that the athletes are hypothetically able to achieve similar muscle mass.

I was deeply shocked and outraged to see a male athlete competing in a womens competition in the commonwealth games due to them following the IOC guidelines on this topic. As I'm sure you know the women's division was only introduced to the olympics in the year 2000 and to the games in 2002, while male athletes have been able to compete in weightlifting since the 1950s. There have been a total of just 4 olympic games where it was even allowed for a woman to win a gold medal in weightlifting, so I'm sure you can understand why I find the idea of the 5th olympic games awarding medals from the women's division to male athletes to be outrageous.

In addition, hormone altering medications carry significant risks and it is irresponsible for the IOC to encourage trans and gender variant athletes to take these medications in order to meet an arbitrarily set limit, when they might otherwise find those medications unnecessary.

Equality and inclusion is not naturally a zero-sum game, though it has been made into one due to policies like the current IOC gender policy.

When the womens competition was introduced at the 2000 olympics, you did not replace the mens team with the womens. You added a womens team. However now when attempting to include gender variant athletes you have effectively removed the womens division and replaced it with one segregated by hormones rather than sex, allowing for the possibility that the women's gold medals can be awarded to men. This is a massive step backwards for equality and inclusion.

If the IOC truly wants to be inclusive they must protect the right of women to compete fairly against other women. Women are defined as the females of the human species, which is determined by chromosomes, gonads, and gametes. There is no level of strength or hormones that a woman can naturally achieve to make her no longer qualify as a woman, and there is no level of hormones or weakness that a man can achieve to make him able to qualify as a women. The current policy implies that that is the case, however that is a belief based in sexism not science, reality, or fairness.
The IOC could simply add a division for trans, gender variant, and intersex athletes who are unable or unwilling to compete against their sex for whatever reason. That could be further divided into hormone classes just as other competitions divide into weight classes, allowing all trans, gender diverse, and intersex people to be included. I suggest you approach those communities about how best to include them.

In these turbulent political times I hope the IOC can lead the way towards true progression and inclusion, where increasing rights and recognition for one group need not come at any cost to another disadvantaged group.

Oblomov18 · 23/04/2018 15:24

I'm not sure this is really a success!

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