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Original poster

Liz Truss MP breaks cover: backs MN

88 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/04/2018 01:57

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5642853/Cabinet-minister-prompts-transgender-row-backing-Mumsnet-users.html
Cabinet minister prompts transgender row after backing Mumsnet users 'leading backlash against militant activists'

That's a total if THREE Trans stories in the Mail on Sunday online dated with the 21st/22nd April.

This is Truss's tweet from 4 days ago

Elizabeth Truss @ trussliz
I enjoy a heated debate with @MumsnetTowers on childcare and I hail her for her approach to free speech. #openminded #freemums
With link to Kirkup's spectactor article.

The original tweet only got about a dozen replies, 24 retweets and a 105 likes.

Cursed E was one of the few responders.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 22/04/2018 12:04

This is nuts! - Mumsnet is a forum. Anybody can post here. They don't take a view, they just provide a place for discussion.

MNHQ would certainly delete any post which incited violence. Which if they existed would certainly be reported by other users. The truth is, there is no ' group that is effectively advocating violence against the transgender community' on MN.

Angryresister · 22/04/2018 12:02

Flomper...the greens tlk about non men, so not much hope there.

Original poster
RedToothBrush · 22/04/2018 12:00

I'd hate them to play this for votes and get another 5 years

They can only use this issue to play for votes because other parties are letting them.

This does not speak well of ANY party.

I am well aware that the Cons are doing exactly the same as Trump did in the US with this subject. It is important that people know this.

But it is also important that voters refuse to give their vote to others who continue with this nonsense and are not prepared to listen to concerns if women too. It is ultimately the only thing they will listen to.

OP posts:
Flomper · 22/04/2018 11:58

I know, I know. I'll probably abstain, which is weird. What have the Green party said about self ID? Not that it makes any difference, I'm in a Tory safe seat anyway.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 22/04/2018 11:57

Merchfach right there with you Confused

RTB thank you for your posts especially this Calling out what they are doing is useful. "Thanks for that example of ad hominem propaganda technique."
Then pose a question not your opinion.

The point is to promote critical thinking not to tell people what to think

tygr · 22/04/2018 11:56

Please remember ALL the other things that governments do and please don't vote Tory. I know I know but they're canny and I'd hate them to play this for votes and get another 5 years. Yikes.

merrymouse · 22/04/2018 11:51

She is giving kudos to Mumsnet who are particularly vicious on this particular front. Truss could be investigated for backing a group that is effectively advocating violence against the transgender community. She may be a terf in disguise

This is nuts! - Mumsnet is a forum. Anybody can post here. They don't take a view, they just provide a place for discussion.

People express opposing views on all sorts of things - Brexit, the housing crisis, chickens.

Flomper · 22/04/2018 11:45

I feel the same way. It's very strange to now be in the position of feeling like, if a GE was called tommorow, Id be left with the xhouce of abstaining (anathema to me) or voting Conservative. Twitter behaviour from representatives of Labour and the Lib Dems and their stance on self ID mean I really couldn't vote for them. Very strange.

Merchfach · 22/04/2018 11:32

I never ever imagined I'd end up doing this, but I've got into the habit of emailing Conservative MPs — Anna Soubry, David Davies, now Liz Truss — to thank them whenever they support women's rights. Because let's be honest, Labour, the LibDems and the Greens have thrown us under a bus.

The world has turned upside down. I'm quoting articles in the Spectator and the Daily Mail and the Times and I'm writing thank-you notes to Conservatives. What happened? Am I actually going to have to vote Conservative next?

Original poster
RedToothBrush · 22/04/2018 11:18

I just read through that and you can pick out the techniques that are being used, really interesting, thanks. Now we need to think about the best ways of countering them. I guess the staying on message thing maybe, just keep repeating "Difference of opinion is not violence", "There is no such thing as literal violence"

Calling out what they are doing is useful. "Thanks for that example of ad hominem propaganda technique."
Then pose a question not your opinion.

The point is to promote critical thinking not to tell people what to think. If what you are saying holds merit and the power of the truth, then let people find their own way to that.

Breaking cults and rescuing members is based on the concept of the promotion of critical thinking. To aim a question at the tiniest amount of doubt in belief of the ideology. To get people to start asking questions again when they are conditioned to resist critical thought - or indeed debate.

Telling people what to think also tends to make people recoil from you, as it can be taken as telling someone they are stupid or judgemental even if that was not the intent. Give people the tools to break free of the authoritarianism showing itself instead.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 22/04/2018 11:09

Yes. Literal violence.

Literal: taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or exaggeration

'Literal' is still widely understood in the real world to mean the opposite of figurative - that's presumably why activists like to misuse it.

Flomper · 22/04/2018 10:55

Maria MacLachlan, I presume you mean, was the subject of actual physical violence surely?

Flomper · 22/04/2018 10:53

Who's Maria Mac?

Violence is absolute imo, you can't commit "literal violence" by disagreeing with someone. Some MTF trans women think they are the same as women. I disagree. I'm not physically hurting them by saying that and im not inciting anyone to physically hurt them. Im not preventing them from doing what they want to do or discriminating against them in terms of employment or other life chances. My opinion doesnt change the way I interact with them. I treat everybody with the same respect. I'm simply disagreeing with them.

Same as when my 5y old says "yes mummy, your bum does look big in that," he's not being literally violent towards me.

ErrolTheDragon · 22/04/2018 10:46

"There is no such thing as literal violence"

Maria Mac might beg to differ...

Flomper · 22/04/2018 10:37

I just read through that and you can pick out the techniques that are being used, really interesting, thanks. Now we need to think about the best ways of countering them. I guess the staying on message thing maybe, just keep repeating "Difference of opinion is not violence", "There is no such thing as literal violence"

Original poster
RedToothBrush · 22/04/2018 10:35

The converse to all these various techniques is the encouragement of critical thinking and getting people to form their own opinions.

The foundation of liberal democracy is the encouragement of critical thinking. Always keep this in mind.

Jefferson effectively said the truth should be allowed to stand alone, without the need to use these techniques extensively (ironically the American revolutionaries did use extensively to win independence, but they won because they used the power of the truth and the power of critical thinking as a crucial part of winning support, rather than forcing people to behave in a certain way)'.

There are historical parallels and examples of how to fight authoritarianism. Find them and work out why they were effective. Especially in the context of a possible far right back lash springing from all this. Provide a moderate alternative.

OP posts:
Wanderabout · 22/04/2018 10:31

Thanks Red.

That should be being taught in schools.

Not specific ideologies pushed using them.

Original poster
RedToothBrush · 22/04/2018 10:27

Honestly if I could recommend just one thing to help people understand politics and the current state of things, I say to read and learn as much of this wikipedia page as your brain will allow and then see how many you can spot in an average day on social media in particular

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_techniques

Knowing these helps you understand what people are trying to do and make you think so much better.

OP posts:
Flomper · 22/04/2018 10:25

God im bored of all the "literal violence" bullshit. There's no such thing. Violence is violence is violence and everybody understands what that means. Having a different opinion isnt inciting violence ffs. The TRA misappropriation of language has very sinister echoes of what happened in Nazi Germany.

Original poster
RedToothBrush · 22/04/2018 10:23

Iain Duncan-Smith is the most memorable in recent history

An example of pre-May government.

Johnson is not the only example under May. Just about every cabinet minister has had a turn. Hammond, Fox, Rudd, Davies to name just a few. Examples of ministers resigning for going against policy seems to be exception rather than the rule currently. Its just not happening. Instead we just get a curt slap down from May if they are unlucky. Simple silence is more common.

OP posts:
Mumsnut · 22/04/2018 10:18

No - right thread. I type VERY slowly.

TheCrowFromBelow · 22/04/2018 10:15

Ellen Grin I think of “Pork”
I watch too much HIGNFY
Surprised to be writing this but Thank You Liz Truss.
And as for Delia’s new-found love of netball, massive massive eye roll. Former man finds success in women’s sports.

Wanderabout · 22/04/2018 10:07

Its been done successfully using the same methods throughout history. We have largely seen it as a thing of the past and become complacent about its use.

I have been guilty of this.

Are these two things new:

  1. Reach and level of control possible with new technology
  1. Low level of awareness in general of degree of men actively working to control language and the narrative within tech (I had no idea before watching the TRA game play out)
Mumsnut · 22/04/2018 09:59

Wrong thread, sorry

BlueSkyandSunshineToday · 22/04/2018 09:59

red. Yes, there are always exceptions made for Boris Hmm - but many front bench careers have ended because individuals can no longer keep quiet about their own opinions. Iain Duncan-Smith is the most memorable in recent history.

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