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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Cis allies" being asked to provide "protection"

256 replies

OlennasWimple · 22/04/2018 01:33

Can we talk about something that seems to be happening a lot at the moment: "cis allies" (note the " " ) are being asked to, in essence, prove their ally credentials but also take the risk and do the hard work apparently in order to protect transwomen (in particular) and transmen from attacks by terfs.

Just in the last week or so, there has been the video of the protestors on the stairs at the Jam Jar venue, which Bristol Sisters has claimed are "cis allies". There was a call out for "cis allies" to escort trans people home at night because they were scared that the terfs were in town and thus trans people were at risk of violent attack. The Free the She Wolf campaign explicitly asked for "cis allies" to attend the protest outside court in order to provide a human shield to protect the trans protesters who were going to be there.

And it's not just in person that "cis allies" are expected to get involved. When I posted the NUS slide presentation on "How to deal with terfs", one of the authors tweeted something along the lines of "Urgh, can a cis ally sort this out", and lo and behold a few new posters popped onto the thread to object to it, and of course MsIntern tweeted that she would get some of her MNHQ pals to take it down. (The slides also contain the suggestion that delegates "put yourself in between trans people and the TERFS")

What is going on here? How is the narrative growing that trans people are a) at significant risk of physical harm from terfs whilst also b) being significantly weaker than "cis allies" so they need their protection? Why are so many people apparently so keen to do this - to prove their woke credentials? Because they are hanging onto the coat tails of an exciting new movement and want to remain part of the gang? Why are so many of them women, when surely if you were looking for bouncers and security guards to keep you safe, you would want big burly men? (Pesky biology meaning that they are stronger than terfs)

Is this a new phenomenon? Have straight women always been asked to sacrifice themselves to the cause for no reward? Or is this just the TRA equivalent of making the sandwiches and putting away the chairs at the end of the meeting?

Confused
OP posts:
newtlover · 24/04/2018 23:06

yes, excellent Olenna.
Except that adoption is well known and understood (I hope) and if I knew that your DD was adopted, I would completely unreservedly accept you as having a mother-daughter relationship, but if I knew someone apparently a woman was a transwoman, I might politely accept this fiction but I would privately have questions and I would have reservations about her presence in any sensitive situation, at least until I knew more about her. Being a mother is about what you DO, mostly, not about biology, after the first 6 months. But being a woman is about biology, always.

Ereshkigal · 24/04/2018 21:18

Really good post Olenna.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 24/04/2018 19:57

Sex being a social construct is an article of faith for a huge number of people

You've got to hope for their own sake that they neither do nor don't want to have children Confused

OlennasWimple · 24/04/2018 19:53

I didn't mean for that to be so long Blush

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 24/04/2018 19:53

To take a parallel from my own life: When the equal marriage law was about to be passed recently in the country I live in, I was asked "in the name of debate" to discuss the validity of my own family, and my parental connection to my children. Fortunately our kids were too small to realise that in "public debate", division lines were being drawn between members of our family with arguments of "biology" and "nature"

To take a parallel from my own life. I am an adoptive mother. Legally, DD is my very own DD and I have lots of documentation, including a birth certificate, that shows this to be the case. I can make medical decisions about her, take her abroad, choose which school she goes to - exactly as if I was her biological mother.

However, I am not her bio mother (however much both of us might wish that to be the case). We could not participate in medical studies that required mother and daughter. My medical history is completely irrelevant to hers. Moreover, we both of us accept that there was a time when she was not my DD - she had a different name (a dead name??), different parents, and although it's part of her life that she hates to discuss, we all know that pretending it isn't part of her history is unhealthy and unhelpful.

We operate a "need to know" principle, where we tell people such as her teacher but on the understanding that this is sensitive information and not to be shared more generally. If people make the assumption that DD is biologically mine, generally we do not correct them: it is inconsequential in almost all circumstances. If DD were older and needed to apply for a DBS check, we would use the sensitive applications route for the paperwork, like we did with her passport application.

In some cultures there would be some differences between DD and DS (who was not adopted), eg some Muslims do not allow adopted children to inherit from their adopted parents, and I believe it's still the case that if I had a title to pass down, DD would not be able to inherit it. But that's not relevant to us as a family, so again, it is simple to ignore.

Big difference: DD's relationship to me has no impact on other members of the public. No-one is harmed by the fact that she is adopted. And, just to double underline the point, despite the fact that I couldn't love her any more even if she had been, we all know that she was not gestated in my womb and delivered from my body and we do not pretend that she was.

If anyone should be allowed to have feelings more important than reality, I would say that it would be parents and children who are a loving family but without biological connections (step children, adopted children, foster children etc). The world gives us a route to legal recognition, but doesn't erase the past (and nor should it).

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ErrolTheDragon · 24/04/2018 19:08

Oh, beliefs.

Oddly enough, I doubt they'll get many converts on a parenting website.Grin

Ereshkigal · 24/04/2018 19:02

But maybe I misunderstood.

No I don't think you did. As Lang says it's a key part of their beliefs.

LangCleg · 24/04/2018 19:00

Does anyone ever actually do that? I can't imagine what anyone could possible mean by sex being a 'social construct'.

Don't go anywhere near pomo Twitter, whatever you do. Sex being a social construct is an article of faith for a huge number of people.

CardsforKittens · 24/04/2018 18:56

Does anyone ever actually do that? I can't imagine what anyone could possible mean by sex being a 'social construct'

I thought that was the position argued by chthulu earlier. But maybe I misunderstood. I wanted to try to figure out what that might mean. In practical terms, as Beyond11cisRetinol pointed out, it might lead to 71 different categories of public toilet. And even that wouldn't solve the problems people foresee re self ID.

ErrolTheDragon · 24/04/2018 17:55

while also arguing that sex and gender are both social constructs.

Does anyone ever actually do that? I can't imagine what anyone could possible mean by sex being a 'social construct'. It's a biological reality for humans as much as it is for any other sexual organism.

ErrolTheDragon · 24/04/2018 17:51

What I keep asking (and never getting an answer to) is why we would want spaces segregated by "gender". For what purpose? I can think of lots of reasons to segregate by sex, but can't think of any reasons why I'd want a space exclusively for people who identify with femininity.

Yes, that's always puzzled me too. Maybe we need sex-segregated loos (one with sanitary bins/machines, one with urinals) plus a unisex 'powder room'?Confused

Bowlofbabelfish · 24/04/2018 14:27

I'm still a bit stuck on why some people want to maintain a sex binary which is not necessarily related to gender, while also arguing that sex and gender are both social constructs.

The sex binary isn’t a matter of opinion. Biology doesn’t have opinions. So there’s no maintaining it. Humans are sexually dimorphic.
Sex isn’t a social construct. Gender is.

So sex exists, independent of what you or I or anyone thinks about it. Our opinions change nothing, society has no say in the existence of sex. Sex just is - like left and right.
Gender however is the set of societal expectations society has of each sex.

So gender and sex arent totally unrelated because we tend to define gender as what we expect each sex to do/be/wear/behave as. Gender expectations flow from what we expect a sex to be like. But gender expectations are a matter of opinion and subject to social change. Women wearing trousers for example, is no longer scandalous.

The solution surely is to keep sex based exemptions/spaces - because they are based on facts. Women are vulnerable because of their biological sex. Some men are a threat. Ergo women’s spaces increase safety. TIMs are Male and thus will be excluded from said spaces

Gender - well that can go jump for all I care. Rigid gender expectations help no one, they only narrow our outlooks.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 24/04/2018 13:54

Fucking biology

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 24/04/2018 13:54

Im going to the one with the shortest queue

Pelvic floor is shot

Beyond11cisRetinol · 24/04/2018 13:53

Maybe we can work a "yes/no" game in there too.

Probably showing my age...

Beyond11cisRetinol · 24/04/2018 13:52

Oo I know - we could go with like, eight multiple rooms; one for each of the people on the spectrum diagram (the one with Barbie on) that mermaids use. It can be like the "take your pick" show of toilets.

SlightAggrandising · 24/04/2018 12:47

That actually sounds like the worst of both worlds angryattack

AngryAttackKittens · 24/04/2018 12:39

What I keep asking (and never getting an answer to) is why we would want spaces segregated by "gender". For what purpose? I can think of lots of reasons to segregate by sex, but can't think of any reasons why I'd want a space exclusively for people who identify with femininity.

CardsforKittens · 24/04/2018 12:36

Yeah, but for those who argue that sex is socially constructed or fluid... in that argument I don't get why it's still binary. Like Chthulucence's post earlier in the thread: would chthulu support an argument for multiple sexes, perhaps with trans sexes within that? To me it seems like a logical conclusion if sex is socially constructed, but maybe I'm missing something.

AngryAttackKittens · 24/04/2018 12:25

It's like accusing people of wanting to maintain gravity.

Doesn't matter how any of us feel about it, it's going to keep existing regardless.

Beyond11cisRetinol · 24/04/2018 12:21

I don't think anyone "wants to maintain a sex binary"?
Sex binary just is
1 or 0, no 0.5.

CardsforKittens · 24/04/2018 10:52

I'm willing to work with the proposition that biological facts are interpreted in society and influenced by historical understandings of what is 'natural' etc. But if that's the case, why would we continue to conceive of biological sex as a binary? Why not expand sex to dozens of categories like gender has been expanded? This could leave us with multiple sexes (e.g. women, trans women, men, trans men, etc) which could all be recognised in law with appropriate provisions re safety and discrimination.

What am I missing? I'm trying really hard to understand all of this but I'm still a bit stuck on why some people want to maintain a sex binary which is not necessarily related to gender, while also arguing that sex and gender are both social constructs. As always, I hope that's not an offensive question - I'm still trying to work it out in my head.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 24/04/2018 10:45

reds post at 8.34 is bang on the money

The technique doesn't work on me as i have the attention span of a tired 2 year old and i see a page of incomprehensible words and switch off

In my previous lives i had to explain insurance and banking terms on occasion...if I couldn't get the customer to understand what i was saying that was my fault, not theirs

LangCleg · 24/04/2018 09:55

Imagine trying to have this argument with a farmer.

I live in hopes that Lil Owen will do one of his unseat-the-Tory campaigning days in my (rural) area. It would be quite the sight.

As someone who spent the first three-quarters of their life in a city and the most recent quarter in the countryside, I can attest that metropolitan political dynamics do not apply here!

MadBadDaddy · 24/04/2018 09:50

Shh.. Don't upset the TRCs... 0_0