Transing children

Coincidence not conciseness

@supermatch - can you link to evidence of genetic, biological and (natural levels) sex hormone based differences in gender identity please? This is the absolute heart of the debate on this board. My identity is (partially) built on the idea that gender is predominantly (and I mean almost completely) socially constructed. It informs my world view and I can actually see it happening in children all around me. Many others on these boards see the same. All the more accessible literature I've seen points in that direction too. THe trans identity is built on the opposite view of gender and the two are coming massively into conflict. Also what do you think about the very high conciseness of GID and ASD as evidence of the social nature of gender? And likewise homosexuality with GID as evidence of the social nature of gender?

Yeah, you don't pump children full of drugs over a social construct. Live as a member of the opposite sex if it'll make you feel better, but not medically. Not until you've finished growing. Anything else is just absurd.

V interesting point about trans-racial/disabled. I'm endlessly fascinated over how transgender is acceptable, and yet transracial isn't...

And the numbers have been discussed, here and by the clinical director that takes the referrals. She doesn't deny there are more natal female referrals. So there are more adult male transitioners is that your point? All that says is more people want to be female.

I could post a load of stuff about the fact that all embryos start off as a blank slate until sexual differentiation, both reproductive systems are there, Y testosterone expression then causes it to not develop as a female. Oversimplification is female is default etc. etc. to shouts of "ideology". So it's perhaps not surprising that there would be a tendency back towards the default (yes it's an oversimplification but not without some basis). Nipples form before the activation of the SRY gene, during the first few weeks of embryo development when X is mediating. Basically nature has made sure everyone has nipples in case we are female. They are then redundant in the male. Consult with some embryologists or obstetricians if you don't like my research and do your bloody own.

Even in (so called) primitive cultures you see feminine expressing males - Hijra, third sex etc. There appears to be a tendency towards femaleness (gender expression) right across human cultures and civilisations. Add into to that the AGP element as paraphilias are more common in biologic males. Again it's multifactorial. I don't claim to have all the answers. I'm now having dinner and getting ready for shitty old work so probably won't be back on tonight. Not running and hiding.

SupermatchGame
Sorry I don't believe there is no connection at all between gender, gender identity and sexuality.
Can you explain exactly what you mean by 'gender' and 'gender identity' in this context?

*in the Equality Act

They can legally Orchid. Ta daa.

Nope. The law recognises their difference from actual women in the existence of exemptions to the Equality Act, and to the GRA.

Although she does blame feminism in the 70s for introducing 'gender' when they meant 'sex', which is a very clumsy way of explaining it.

Have they found any genetic component to trans-racial or trans-abled or are those still considered mental disorders, and if so, why?

I think one of the biggest issues is that now trans encompasses people who don't have sex dysphoria. Is that playing into the stats? Is it being picked up by HCPs?

Dr. Cretella, President of the American College of Pediatricians also has serious misgivings about the way children are being medicalised; yes she's got a religious interest but she's been very vocal about the science vs moral responsibilities of doctors.

They can legally Orchid. Ta daa.
And to some extent biochemically.

And if I'd linked one video you would have said: only one - pah!

Round in circles.

And what a lot of videos you have to shore up your stance. How about numbers?

Whatever you believe about gender identity, humans can't change sex

I think we know what the statistics say OldCrone. Actually do we?
Someone said they hadn't heard of any middle aged (40+) m2f or late transmasculine transitioners. I just provided some examples. I'm not trying to argue every single point on the forum.

SarahCarer Well glad you've got through the rough. Yes the situation you highlight is one possibility and the links with GID and ASD are very well recognised. There are countless references as I'm sure you know www.researchgate.net/publication/273639503_Brief_Report_Autistic_Features_in_Children_and_Adolescents_with_Gender_Dysphoria

I don't think that explains all gd in children and I don't think it accounts for all of the increase either. Though clearly there is a connection sometimes.

You say sexuality is entirely biological and gender identity is entirely socially constructed. I don't believe that. Most mental health professionals don't either. I'm not saying blue brain pink brain, but I do think gender identity is a mixture of genetics, biology, biochemistry, environment, society and culture. The human brain is sex-hormone sensitive, both during development and as an adult. There are some differences between average male and average female brains in terms of structures. Sexual behaviour is a 'behaviour' and that can be determined by brain physiology so why would we think that no other behaviour is either?

Sorry I don't believe there is no connection at all between gender, gender identity and sexuality. I think there is. Not a totally rigid, inflexible and always predictable one. It is within the context of the great and fabulous diversity of human experience but nevertheless there is some connection.

Regarding adult women transitioning, I've heard of at least two stories where the mother transitioned alongside one of her children. In fact in this case, the entire family (mum, dad, two kids) all transitioned! This is the other case.

SupermatchGame
There are quite a few but the media doesn't seem as interested.
What do the statistics say?

Super- glad to see someone with the understanding of the training, pain and complexity that goes into this work posting. (Maybe you don’t but sounds like you do)
And if you do you will also agree that this is not thought of as straightforward by anyone working clinically!

I'm not sure that's the correct job title.
You're right. Bad choice of words. Inappropriate humour. It's a coping mechanism.

(Chief child transer)

I'm not sure that's the correct job title.

@Supermatchgame I have put forward an alternative possibility above for why there are currently so many girls transitioning.... what are your thoughts?

I feel for you and your dd Starkstaring. I was just extremely fortunate in finding the Mumsnet feminists at just the right time for my dd. Although I had a bit of a torrid time initially the intelligence of the posters shone through and I kept reading and thinking until I could see a way through for us. PM me if there is anything I can help with.

This is where the greater awareness theory falls down. Currently far more girls than boys are being referred for gender identity issues.

Yes there are more natal females being referred at the moment. Do you not think (Chief child transer) Polly is very well aware of that? She discusses it at length. And she admits she doesn't have all the answers. She seems very cognisant of the complexity and sensitivity of the issue. She does not deny a social component.
tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/news/stories/gender-identity-development-service-on-bbc-radio-4s-womans-hour/

As she says it's likely to be multifactorial. Historically there have always been more tomboys than overtly gnc boys. (I know you know this).Tomboys that range from wanting to cut hair and wear boys clothes through to insisting on male name. It's more acceptable and more common so it's not surprising there are more natal female presentations at the clinic. Presumably those that are not really true gender dys get filtered out.

OrchidInTheSun I have never heard of a middle aged woman suddenly coming out as trans but I know a good few men who have

Oh really? Depends what you mean by 'suddenly' I guess. There are quite a few but the media doesn't seem as interested. They are interesting to listen to.

people.com/bodies/transgender-father-and-daughter-transition/

Sorry if that's links overload.
No doubt you will think trans propaganda.

SarahCarer you were very fortunate and insightful in helping your DD. My DD identifies as male, told us aged 18. Only after that did the penny drop that she is autistic. She now has a formal diagnosis of ASD. So all her difficulties - rigid thinking, not fitting in, social anxieties, gender non-conformity - have combined themselves in this very powerful explanation (in her head) that she has a male brain in a female body.

Having had absolutely no inkling that this would have crossed her mind, we were completely blindsided. So now we are letting things run their course, and hoping that at least one professional in a gender clinic will explore the possibility that there is nothing wrong with her body that needs fixing.

ChinnyReckon1 "But it would be extremely rare that your opinion would overide the opinion of the individual themselves when their view that they are transgender is not considered to be a mental illness. In many ways that is how it should be, that the persons wants should not be ignored and overriden by a representative of the state (in the not too distant past this led to numerous human rights abuses)".

I think you are referring to society's response to homosexuality there are you? The difference is that homosexuality is an innate condition of the human brain whereas gender identity is not. Gender is socially constructed and therefore has a social explanation and gender disphoria has a social solution. My dd has presented with ASD and strong signs of GID (e.g. saying "I am not a girl" since around 3 years old and major fear of turning into a woman). She decided she must be trans after hearing another person's trans narrative. Due to her ASD her thinking patterns are very rigid. If I had supported her in that and accepted her narrative she would definitely have been on the trans journey to medically assisted self mutilation by now. If I had tried to insist that she is confused and that she really is a girl and she will 'feel' feminine when she is older she would definitely have been on the trans journey by now. But I understand gender and her gender resisting super power that lies within her autism. I have been able to carefully explain the whole thing to her and address her enormous fears about puberty that are associated with the changes in her body rather than her current body. She is now happily GNC and her appearance of GID is, at least for now, fully resolved. As a medical professional you would not have seen the conversations that have informed your patients' identities.

Yes the fact that the increase in numbers of people coming out as transed are weighted heavily towards girls when it's children and heavily towards men when it's middle aged people suggests that there is a huge amount of socialisation at play.

I have never heard of a middle aged woman suddenly coming out as trans but I know a good few men who have