Transing children

I just searched 'Memorandum of Understanding' and the top Mumsnet thread that came up (September 2017) is incredibly interesting and pertinent. I'm going to make a large pot of coffee and read it carefully.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3041152-i-am-janice-turner-s-no-1-fan-another-excellent-article?pg=12

Link to article www.thetimes.co.uk/article/wrong-gender-feelings-could-be-teen-anxiety-bpr7jr3wd

in which therapist raised their concerns:
"The therapist said that official guidelines issued in October made it risky to help patients explore alternative explanations — such as autism and anxiety — rather than simply “affirm” that they must be transgender and assist their transition....

She blamed new guidelines issued within a Memorandum of Understanding on Conversion Therapy in the UK for governing the treatment of those uncertain about their gender identity. The memo expects therapists to assist patients wishing to change their gender identity rather than explore alternative treatments."

• was the 'Memorandum of Understanding' the basis on which the Transgender Trend resource pack was roundly condemned? I remember at the time it was described as 'conversion therapy'.

www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Transgender-Trend-Resource-Pack-for-Schools.pdf

I think the way forward is to raise your little humans as gender neutral. This will hopefully help those with gender dysphoria from needing to address their issues until later in their childhood

Yeah, I divorced him in the end. He was costing me too much money and boring me to death.

You are now one of my heroes, Trousers .

I tried to make mine stay at home half the time, but to no avail. As a lecturer, he was earning more money than me while I was only writing my thesis. Got so fed up with that unequal arrangement, I abandoned him for a few months and went to my parents' where I could get my son into decent childcare so I could write the bloody thing. But after that I stalled completely. Totally admire women who did what I couldn't!

For all intents and purposes I've had a man's life.

I grew up with three brothers and a hands off mother and a dad that rebuilt cars and houses with us all watching.

I joined the RN at 19.

I've traveled and worked alone all around the world.

I've worked in Investment banking for 30 years shouting down the most aggressive big swinging dicks on the planet, and enjoyed doing it.

I own a vintage car I show at race courses. I race yachts still in my late 50s.

I married a man that earned less money than me and made him stay at home while I went to work after I had pushed out two babies.

Gender? Fuck that bullshit.

TheyBuiltThePyramids really hope that your teen continues to talk to you about all this. Puberty is hard enough without all this nonsense being thrust upon the kids.

This whole "gender conform or else trans" thing has thoroughly upset my mum. She worked in childcare in the late 60s early 70s and from then onwards, her and her colleagues encouraged all of the children in the nursery to play with all kinds of toys. There were no boy toys and girl toys, there were just toys supporting different areas of early childhood development (social in the doll house, emotional at doctor play, fine motor skills at lego etc etc).

Over four decades she's educated probably a couple of thousand kids and the patterns were always the same - between three and four the awareness that boys and girls are different, curiosity of that difference leading to an entirely innocent brief look or touch and that's when they taught the kids a) to be gentle, you need those parts and b) bodily integrity.

They had plenty of gender-non-conforming boys and girls over the years. But they wouldn't have dreamt of teaching the kids that meant they were the other sex. At no point did they ever go into the real boys and real girls crap that goes on today.

I mean without that you can't really teach gender identity, can you?

Talking with her about her friends, and talking to my friends about their teens, and their friends, everyone seems to be gay, trans, bi or something these days. We were talking about growing up in the 80s where men wore make up and frilly shirts or dresses and no-one even gave it a thought. You couldn't tell the difference. And these days, boy band members are not allowed to be gay because it affects record sales and all girls have to have straightened hair and fleek eyebrows etc. We are going backwards.

I have been following all this with interest. My teen has come to me asking for puberty blockers and wanting to come out as trans. I said no to any drugs and explained my reasoning. I have pointed out that puberty is a bastard thing to go through but the hormones play their part in normal development and have many health implications beyond these few years. I was expecting mega drama but it seems to have been accepted and no more said - though I am keeping a close eye on things. If I had said " oh yes, let's go see the doctor immediately" well who knows how this could have gone.

@laudaloneknows. That is a good description of the man I had the misfortune to have to deal with when I worked in a vintage shop. I was very young, and inexperienced. My boss had said that a “odd but harmless “ man sometimes came in and looked through the nightdresses and slips, he liked to stroke the satin. So when he did come in I tried to be kind , he just upped and upped the ante because he wanted my shocked reaction. Eventually he came out of the changing room, naked underneath a satin nightdress, pointed his erection at me and said “ what do you think of this, does it suit me ? “ ... I had no idea how to deal with it, it was just horrible. My boss also was upset , having told me he was harmless. Uggh.

In this case, by people, I do mean men.

Absolutely Reluctant. They are two entirely different things.

I've been thinking about AGP since I posted and wondering whether that explains some of the dynamic that's happening. Some people get sexually aroused by women mocking, criticising and humiliating them for their femininity. And what do the TRAs have us doing? It's all part of the manipulation to get their kicks isn't it?

and it is very wrong to conflate dysphoria, a serious condition that causes sufferers so much unhappiness with a sexual kink.

It most certainly does not benefit the dysphoria sufferers in any way. But is does help the AGPs to garner undeserved sympathy.

I was briefly in a relationship with someone with AGP. He had also been treated for porn addiction.

For him, it was a fetish/ obsession that pervaded our sex life. He was into forced feminisation. His fantasies included things like going to shops to buy women's underwear and then drawing the women working in the shop into the fantasy. He would get turned on at the thought of them knowing he was buying the underwear for himself, watching him and mocking/ judging him in the changing room etc. The next step would be acting on it.

I know these people exist from personal experience too. He's a nice guy. We're still mates. But this is a real condition/ kink.

Magdalen Berns has posted her interview with Possie Parker, where she talks about the consequences of debating and disagreeing with Susie Green about transing children. Very chilling.

Also I can confirm with out doubt that AGP exists, I don't need scientific data or reports, I live with a self confessed AGP. Won't go into details about my personal situation. But if you have the stomach for it and you want to read the real hidden side of Trans Women with AGP click on the Trans Widow thread that Datun has linked to above.

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=31&v=7E8o_4IVk8A

I have no issues with any kink done in a consenting way as long as it poses no threat to anyone outside. The problem we have here is that it IS involving people who don’t consent to be involved - by campaigning for self ID it’s effectively inflicting the consequences of a paraphilia on women and girls in wider society.

Exactly. No objection to AGP unless I'm forced to participate - whether by obnoxious activists, social forces, or statute.

I love it when crisp bangs on about AGP quackery - it invalidates everything else crisp says because the existence of AGP is plain as day to anybody with eyes after spending thirty seconds on trans Twitter.

Yes Bowlofbabelfish, I think that's an important connection to make.

Saying gender dysphoria and AGP are the same is part of the problem in all this, at least partly because of the number of people in each group.

I've had this argument before with trans allies - that AGP is a horrible myth invented by Zucker to make TIMs look like creepy pervs

Of course AGP is a thing. It’s studied widely. A swift search throws up multiple peer reviewed articles.

I have no issues with any kink done in a consenting way as long as it poses no threat to anyone outside. The problem we have here is that it IS involving people who don’t consent to be involved - by campaigning for self ID it’s effectively inflicting the consequences of a paraphilia on women and girls in wider society.

And children.

crispbuttyfan's at 20.46 last night is incredibly disingenuous.

Is there any one here who believes that in this whole wide world there is not a single man who finds dressing in stereotypically female clothes arousing?

I don't have a problem with people getting their kicks this way. I know that by definition it probably goes hand in hand with misogynistic attitudes, but I can't (and don't want) to control what people think, just as they can't control what I think about them.

crisp

How can you reconcile the fact that TRAs are trying to get gender dysphoria removed as a criteria for GRC with the above statements you make?

Because if what you’re saying is true then all these late onset transitioners were ‘trans kids’ who would have been diagnosed with DSM5 GD.

And what they are saying is ‘we need to get rid of the strict medical criteria so anyone who feels like it can self ID’

These are totally opposing viewpoints.

Which is correct?

Also away with your vapours and hysteria. Your misogyny is showing.

Thanksforthatamazingpost

Yes, AGP is the fetishisation of womanhood. It's sometimes called becoming the thing you love. Or forced feminisation.

And yes Grayson Perry is quite upfront about his AGP.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's a misogynistic fetish. Because it relies on seeing women as weak, compliant, victims. See forced feminisation, cissification, etc.

It's also linked to high porn use.

The men who have at see women in a hyper sexualised, available way.

Fact that they get aroused by claiming that they are women and forcing people to use preferred pronouns, is very damaging to women.

Here is a support thread written by, and for, women who are married or divorced from men with AGP.

They are at the coalface and their stories are all remarkably similar.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

Are you denying the existence of cross dressing fetishists? They are certainly included under that big old umbrella.

Crisp speaking

baffling
disingenuous
'feminists'
champion quackery
vapours, hysteria, and nymphomania
quackery
transphobes
desperate
absolute tripe

hyperbole

noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
"he vowed revenge with oaths and hyperboles"
synonyms: exaggeration, overstatement, magnification, amplification, embroidery, embellishment, overplaying, excess, overkill;

We've been through this before crispbuttyfan

And there are on the whole really only two kinds of people who deny that the most extensively researched paraphilia exists: TRAs and AGPs. (There is of course considerable overlap between these two groups.)

I'm not going to bother listing all of these studies again, especially since facts seem to make no difference. I feel that you are maybe too invested in this emotionally, so I'll spare us both the repeat argument.

But your claim that "trans adults whether late transitioning or early, were both trans kids" is demonstrably untrue.

In fact a large majority of late-onset transsexuals were completely gender conforming boys, often displaying strong homophobia and chosing macho jobs. Now the cross-dressing sometimes started in adolescence and sometimes later, but that doesn't make you a transkid.

The DSM-V is very strict on what constitues gender dysphoria. And late-onset transsexuals do not have childhood GD - otherwise, obviously, they wouldn't be called late-onset.

And yes, late-onset transsexuals have a tendency to retcon GD into their childhood, but that doesn't make it true.