Everyone should see this IMPORTANT

Oh fgs

Marvin's

Yes I bet you got weird pm's

This is about men threatening women, period. Don't be mealy-mouthed pretending to fence sit. Just talk straight. You aren't against what they do.

I saw your comment earlier about anti-fascism march...blah blah. Yes..the usual musings from those who are in it to be trendy, and always mention it as if it means anything at all aside from selective solidarity with a self-serving agenda.

Normally to be found somewhere earnestly and unblinkingly telling black people how to act think and feel about fascism. When their aggressors look like you, but you aren't nuanced enough to take that into account when demonstrating your "anti" ness.

Being both black and a woman I know exactly what fascism is, both racist and sexist fascism, and that so-called liberals at times are the worst as they're so self-assured that they are right (privilege at play); "anti-fascism" is ok - as long as it's done in their way, of course. They'll mention for next 40 years they went to an anti-fascism march.

Never mind your trying to cloud the issue. Women are being threatened and intimidated. Men are physically stronger. Now if that continues it's going to be pretty shit for me I should think.

You write as if to an audience that's not in this forum right now so I guess whoever you're demo-ing for is busy with the "look here at all these unreasonable women" stance.

I hope the day never comes when we are passive and reasonable in the face of fascism be that anti-woman or anti-foreigner.

I am GC and not transphobic

I really dont understand why you are going marvin just ignore anyone who may be misrepresenting your position if that what you believe

was chanted outside the jam jar, I was there

Interesting, were you with the feminists or the TRAs?

'Terf' is an insult. Nobody calls themselves a terf except as a joke. Are you saying TRA is also an insult? Because as a term it isn't associated with death threats, defamation and dehumanisation in the same way 'terf' is.

marvin

So you don't want to answer my question

Or did you mean mumsnet FWR

Gaspode

I did one of those test things that someone posted on here and i was pretty much in the middle

I am a feminist...if someone made me chose i would probably have to say radical

Its a bit like my politics...im definitely centre there as well

Haven't Bristol University students voted for a TERF ban?

Ah, do you know what?

I was actually hoping to have a 'civilised debate' looking at both sides (as I see both sides having my own GC viewpoint and knowing and speaking to lots of young transpeople who may well be TRAs in MN opinion) and was using the term 'Terfs' as that's what the TRAs use (and was chanted outside the jam jar, I was there) and I was using it from that pov.

As in - 'you' think they're TRAs. They think 'you' are Terfs.

Quite a difficult thing to try and go against some viewpoints on FWR but I was willing to do it as know that most (well, it used to be) posters on FWR actually want to talk rather than have the echo chamber it's often accused of.

You can ask MN to check my previous names (I nc regularly as work with high risk people) and as we've seen from the EH stuff, MN keep emails even if you deregister so MNHQ can see that even if I've dereged at times, I've been a member on and off since 2009 under this email.

They can see all my GC posts pre and post Spartacus. It's only recently I've felt 'pushed out' of FWR for not fully supporting a lot of the views.

But I got a PM saying that person doesn't 'even report TRAs as believe in free speech' but threatening to report me for using Terf and accusing me of using the tactics of TRAs.

I don't like getting weird PMs threatening me in any way.

So...I honestly can't be bothered and unusual for me, I'm a bit upset. I used to stand with you.

I actually am standing up at work (where a GC someone like me is needed). But fuck this.

MN asked for a trans section and it was opposed (I initially opposed it to). Feminist MNetters have said they saw transphobia sometimes and it was denied.

It has gone so far in some aspects of the site that it's bored the women it affects and alienated the very women the self ID issue had galvanised. That's why the petition has just over 10,000 names (I signed) despite the millions of MN users and the repeated MN threads about it.

So I'll be off. Like the feminists before me. Shit it's come to this but after years of pointing out you could be GC without being transphobic. I can't be arsed.

I wasn't battling you lot. I was on the side of truth and non-bigotry. For all.

I hesitate to describe myself as a radical feminist. I'm not steeped in the literature. I would have hesitated to call myself a feminist until quite recently. I genuinely thought most of the battles had been won a long time ago and things were getting better for women. Now I think I've been extremely naive.

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." Attributed to Margaret Atwood.

I first came across this after I started getting interested in this topic. How very true it is. Women are socialised to be nice to others. Some men seem to find it so unsettling to be challenged by a woman that it's automatically interpreted as aggression.

I don't consider myself as a Terf and that has excluded me from some of the feminist movement in this case

What feminist movement

@Marvin " In a situation with polarising viewpoints bound to create tension.... "

• a situation arranged and created by the TAs, for exactly that purpose.

‘But I do think both sides are creating fear of the other which is often not entirely evidenced.’

I have seen plenty of evidence why women who disagree with self ID have reason to fear; physical assault and the encouragement of physical violence against them for a start. I have never seen the equivalent response from women.

I’m reminded of Donald Trump’s argument of the moral equivalency between the Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville, and those protesting them

Personally, I think Marvin is talking sense. I think the debate is becoming increasingly polarised and hateful. TRAs are mainly responsible but from the perspective of someone who is fully GC, peak-TRA'd etc, I think people on these boards have become increasingly unwilling to brook any argument that isn't wholehearted agreement. The fear on the GC side of being doxxed etc is also making us less tolerant- we assume that anyone with a more moderate POV is being goady.

But we also have to accept that there are trans individuals who are afraid and that they genuinely feel under threat. The atmosphere the last couple of weeks has become very uncomfortable. This is a good sign because it's the result of the debate coming more into the mainstream.

I don't know. I don't seem to have a point, except that dismissing anyone with a moderate POV as a troll seems to be self-defeating.

They're scared that Terfs want to eradicate them

Well, if they're that delusional, perhaps it's better than we don't legislate for their demands then, eh?

But Marvin, take away all the talk of violence and you are left with some facts.

The protesters tried to stop the meeting. I don’t know how it eventually proceeded, but the organisers of the meeting were stopped from entering a room by people who had no authority to do so.

The meeting had Q&A and the venue specifically encouraged participation from people with different views. There were opportunities to engage.

What kind of ideology tries to silence opposing view points?

Marvin

You are fooling noone

2/10 for trolling. Must try harder

Marvin, 'terf' is just an insult for 'gender critical'. What is your understanding of the difference?

I don't consider myself as a Terf and that has excluded me from some of the feminist movement in this case.

I think we have troll bingo.

Hint - when women call themselves TERFs it's a joke. There is no feminist movement that you'd be excluded from for not calling yourself that.

But a 'bunch' is 3/4 here on a stairwell? (And I'm not condoning that behaviour AT all, particularly as I respect and admire speakers and organisers and Magdalen Berns hugely and know she's been unwell)

And a couple of dozen protesters outside who can be heard chanting and it's mostly womens voices that can be heard on the video. Heavy Police and media presence outside.

In a situation with polarising viewpoints bound to create tension and actions by a small number of people who genuinely believe that the Terfs are threatening their right to live their lives.

And this is being used as an example of how all TRAs are aggresive and all women are at risk from them. That that is fascism. And we all should be terrified.

The TRAs/trans/trans allies are saying they were threatened and someone thrown down the stairs. That Terfs want to eradicate trans people. That that is fascism. And they should all be terrified.

THEY think they are right and Terfs think THEY are right.

And I don't think that's the case. I don't think every woman should be terrified of trans people or TRAs and I don't think trans people should be terrified of Terfs.

But I do think both sides are creating fear of the other which is often not entirely evidenced.

I'm a GC woman who is 'out' at work and in RL and in my line of work that is significant (as I often work with trans people, so it maybe that I see the different RL people that really believe what they believe but really aren't that frightening).

I don't consider myself as a Terf and that has excluded me from some of the feminist movement in this case.

I can see that there is so much passion, total belief in the 'cause' and fear on both. So I'm seeing both sides.

Which is an uncomfortable position to be in given my own GC opinions. But I think it's as valid as any other and in this debate, it's an important one.

I notice the quiet, buried false equivalence between feminists and the BNP in Marvin's post.

They're scared that Terfs want to eradicate them. They do believe it, from the propaganda they read and see.

The irony is, if they actually attended the meeting and listened and engaged with people, they'd realise the propaganda is false. Their refusal even to listen to the other side is the mark of a cult.

I say this as a gender critical person who has read loads about trans ideology. I'm sure I've read far more written by TRAs than by feminists.

Peaceful protest in the ideal but history has shown us it doesn't get a lot of attention.

One person one vote, freedom of expression, free press, independent judiciary is the ideal.

If you are making your point by attacking people physically, then it’s just a fight. Women tend to lose physical fights against men.

They're scared that Terfs want to eradicate them. They do believe it, from the propaganda they read and see.

There’s no arguing with credulousness and a lack of critical thinking.

They're scared that Terfs want to eradicate them

But this was a meeting of with Q&A.

In a democracy, we have meetings and exchange opinions.

In a country like the U.K. where freedom of expression is protected, why avoid and shut down debate if you believe in your argument?

Marvin
Stop calling gender critical women terfs.
You should know its a term of abuse.

@MarvinshouldhavesaidWTFisgoing I get what you're saying. However, I can't imagine masked anti-fascists blocking entry to a BNP meeting and arrogantly demanding ID, or sneering, as though they are in charge, 'you are free to leave'. Why not? Because the BNP are mainly male and there's a different power dynamic going on. I've witnessed counter-fascist demonstrations and I can tell you that both sides seemed to relish what was happening. It was a chance for a scrap. Forcibly closing down a political meeting as though you're Brownshirts in pre-Nazi Germany is something quite different.

You'll notice that feminists are not disrupting TRA meetings in this way. It's all incredibly one-sided.