Yogyakarta principles

So maybe the people who drew up the Yogyakarta Principles were experts in fair treatment, but they let the most appallingly unfair propositions be included.

It looks as though it was originally intended to be about LGB rights. But at some point 'gender identity' got added on, and by making the assumption that gender identity was in some way similar to sexual orientation, they could just tag 'gender identity' on every time 'sexual orientation' was mentioned, and it would all make sense and be perfectly reasonable.

Stephen Whittle no doubt played a large part in convincing people who didn't really know much about 'gender identity' that this was a good idea.

And I misunderstood you, OhHoly

It would seem I spoke out of ignorance. Most of my knowledge of the writers of the YPs comes from reading what Stephen Whittle had to say about them, and what Whittle said came across as cronyism.

I've started reading them (on No 10 so far) and most of what I have read makes absolute, compassionate sense. Until I got to Principle 3
The Right to recognition before the law. Fair enough that a person's minority faith should be recognised as valid among a majority of non-believers. But it goes on to say No status, such as marriage or parenthood, may be invoked as such to prevent the legal recognition of a person’s gender identity. No one shall be subjected to pressure to conceal, suppress or deny their sexual orientation or gender identity.” Could experts in Women's Rights and Equality not see the conflict this would set up? That the women whose husbands transitioned would be subjected to pressure to deny their heterosexuality.

And then Principle 6
The Right to Privacy
The right to privacy ordinarily includes the choice to disclose or not to disclose information relating to one’s ... gender identity...

The problem with this is that it requires everyone around the trans person to deny the evidence. How could a Human Rights lawyer not see the conflict inherent in a state legislating that people must lie?

So maybe the people who drew up the Yogyakarta Principles were experts in fair treatment, but they let the most appallingly unfair propositions be included.

Oh thanks Old sorry Jelly. My mistake,
I'll shut up now xx

That's a bit unfair Jelly the panel includes a human rights lawyer and this woman - she was the Chair of European Network of Migrant Women, she is now the strategy and policy advisor.

cy.linkedin.com/in/anna-zobnina-9b088078

a distinguished group of international human rights experts

Really? My understanding was that they were a self-appointed group of activists, who invited along people they knew who had views compatible with theirs.

The panel sound great Tina wish I could make it. Their webinars are fab, I struggle to attend but really enjoy them when I do. Will share.

There's going to be a Zoom webinar about this on Saturday - looks very interesting:

"Where did gender identity ideology come from? One source is the 2006 Yogyakarta Principles which claims to be “a universal guide to human rights which affirm binding international legal standards with which all States must comply.”
Find out more at Feminist Question Time LIVE on the Yogyakarta Principles.

Women's Human Rights Campaign (WHRC) is hosting a LIVE Feminist Question Time on Sat 8th August from 3-4.30pm UK time. Our weekly online webinars are attended by a global feminist and activist audience of between 150-300. The main focus is how gender ideology is harming the rights of women and girls. You can see recordings of previous panels on our YouTube Channel.
This week’s speakers are:
Anna Zobnina, Feminist activist and expert on international women's rights law.
Fatina Lisa, LGB Alliance.
Tina Minkowitz, international human rights lawyer, expert on the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, and author of the paper (as LLM thesis) Female Autonomy vs Gender identity: A critical analysis of gender identity in CEDAW jurisprudence and the Yogyakarta Principles
Register in advance for this webinar:
us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_Mq9EMIAbTkyNz5gAx4l2DQ
After registering, you will receive a confirmation email containing information about joining the webinar."

Wow! It is astonishing that this got through ... .classic example of great document with some Trojan horses sneaked in under the radar...

BUT ARE THEY???

I am not sure all countries are so enthusiastically embracing them as Scotland.

And surely they are open to interpretation?

for example Ensure that all individuals can participate in sport without discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or sex characteristics; " which translates as 'transwomen can compete in women's sport

.... Can this not be interpreted that sex characteristics mean that for most sports it is appropriate to divide by sex characteristics i.e. women's sport for natal women???

And entirely appropriate that sport where possible can be adapted for gender expression/identity - i.e. having third category for transpeople.... Though it does seem a bit of a muddle if a Pippa Bunce can identify as a woman one day and a man another day - which if a sportsperson would mean they could compete as a man one day and in the third category another day, if they wanted to ... or does it?

Pre reading for the meeting on 13th June in London.

Paedophilia is a “sexual orientation” like being straight or gay, according to a criminal psychologist. www.independent.co.uk/news/paedophilia-sexual-orientation-straight-gay-criminal-psychologist-child-sex-abuse-a6965956.html

How long before someone claims paedophilia is a sexual orientation and paedophiles shouldn't be discriminated against or referred for treatment/therapy?

I saw indications of this mentioned on Twitter...I didn't save it though and can't remember who tweeted it but this does seem to be "out there".

Fucking hell. I risked my life to have my daughter and THIS is the world I've brought her in to.

To add insult to injury, we're in Ireland and that Sinn Fein bill terrifies me. How long before someone claims paedophilia is a sexual orientation and paedophiles shouldn't be discriminated against or referred for treatment/therapy?

They will broker no definition of 'female gender identity', so claiming that someone who looks, appears and acts according to typical male patterns, and has male male biology is not going to change that.

So it literally comes down to 'I'm a woman because I say so, now shut up or you will go to prison for denying my self-defined gender identity''

Self-defined gender identity means whatever YOU want. So there is nothing that can ever possibly circumscribe it. I assert I am female therefore I am female and the Degenderettes will be round to sort you out if you disagree.

Note that fundamentally they do not give a damn about the women and girls raped, murdered, excluded from school, genitally mutilated, left to die in childbirth, etc. There is not one word about sex in the original principles. Not one word. Someone said 'hey guyz we should try and pretend we're not actually just MRAs and add something in when we top-up on our TRA nonsense for version 2.0', so they did add 'sex characteristics' in in the +10.

But it was always an afterthought, and it's still subordinate to MRA 'gender identity'. There's NOTHING allowed to circumscribe gender identity. Not 'sex characteristics'. In fact half the uses of 'sex characteristics' in the +10 version is to say 'how dare you try to assert the sex characteristics of transpeople you transphobic scum'.

Check out principle 10:

"Prohibit any practice, and repeal any laws and policies, allowing intrusive and irreversible treatments on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or sex characteristics, including forced genital-normalising surgery, involuntary sterilisation, unethical experimentation, medical display, “reparative” or “conversion” therapies, when enforced or administered without the free, prior, and informed consent of the person concerned."

These utter bastards managed to write a whole fucking principle on protecting people's genitals and they make it about a trans/intersex rights? I mean the actual fuck do these MRAs realise that hundreds of millions of women are subject to actual genital mutilation, but yet they manage to refer.

And NO there's not an anti-FGM clause somewhere else. That's it. It's about protecting the right of 'transwomen' to have male genitals and if you don't like it you can suck their dicks.

And nooooooo, of course there's not one solitary word about menstruation in there. This is about MEN'S rights. MEN'S 'sexual characteristics'. Bollocks.

But, oh wait they did stick up for women's rights. The right to be trafficked and sold as prostitutes, of course that's really important isn't it. Menstruation and FGM nobody has got TIME for that shit. But sex work is another matter, we gotta protect the right to get your end away:

"Repeal other forms of criminalisation and sanction impacting on rights and freedoms on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or sex characteristics, including the criminalisation of sex work"

"So if you are a heterosexual man you can ask to be put in a women's prison?"

Ahem.

Try again with your language. The approved term is 'lesbian transwoman'.

But yes. Absolutely. If you assert that your gender identity is female, then anyone who denies it for any reason whatsoever, including but not limited to the fact that you have done absolutely nothing whatsoever to change your behaviour or appearance from when you asserted you were a man, then that person an evil human rights abuser and will surely burn in hell for their denial of your human rights.

Or perhaps just have the government investigate them for their
"advocacy of hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility, or violence on grounds of sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or sex characteristics, whether by public or private actors;"

Lock everyone up who says that Ian Huntley is not a woman. Put them all in prison. They are evil and must be silenced.

Obviously the +10 principles are like TRA level 2.0, and include stuff like

". Ensure that all individuals can participate in sport without discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or sex characteristics; " which translates as 'transwomen can compete in women's sport'

"Adopt and implement policies to combat violence, discrimination and other harm on grounds of sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or sex characteristics faced by persons who are deprived of their liberty, including with respect to such issues as placement, body or other searches, items to express gender,
access to and continuation of gender affirming treatment and medical care, and “protective” solitary confinement;"

'Items to express gender' LOL.

". Ensure that all individuals who wish to participate in sport are supported to do so irrespective of sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression and sex characteristics, and that all individuals are able to participate, without restriction, subject only to reasonable, proportionate and non-arbitrary requirements to participate in line with their self-declared gender;"

And yes it tells government to 'address' any sort of gender-critical behaviour as the putative root of violence against people with different gender idintity.

So if you are a heterosexual man you can ask to be put in a women's prison?

"Undertake programmes of education and awareness to promote and enhance the full enjoyment of all human rights by all persons, irrespective of sexual orientation or gender identity;
Integrate within State policy and decision-making a pluralistic approach that recognises and affirms the interrelatedness and indivisibility of all aspects of human identity including sexual orientation and gender identity" - gender identity is real (but somehow biological sex isn't) and the state must promote the concept, but the actual discrimination specifically and solely due to biological sex - sorry we don't give a shiny shit about that.

"Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity includes any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on sexual orientation or gender identity which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing equality before the law or the equal protection of the law, or the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal basis, of all human rights and fundamental freedoms" - You can never exclude people on the basis of their gender identity. Never! Respect my authority!

"Take appropriate measures to secure adequate advancement of persons of diverse sexual orientations and gender identities as may be necessary to ensure such groups or individuals equal enjoyment or exercise of human rights. Such measures shall not be deemed to be discriminatory;" - You must ensure that there is specific representation for people of 'diverse gender identity'. No word of what the fuck this actually means. Stefonknee?

"No one shall be forced to undergo medical procedures, including sex reassignment surgery, sterilisation or hormonal therapy, as a requirement for legal recognition of their gender identity. " - in other words 'gender identity' is completely arbitrary on an individual's say-so, and you must not assert that it is linked to any hormone state, possession of male genitals, etc.

"Take all necessary legislative, administrative and other measures to ensure that procedures exist whereby all State-issued identity papers which indicate a person’s gender/sex — including birth certificates, passports, electoral records and other documents — reflect the person’s profound self-defined gender identity;" - my gender is whatever I say it is, and nobody can deny that, this obviously includes Ian Huntley, mass-murderers, rapists, people breaking into girl's bedrooms to masturbate etc.

"Ensure that changes to identity documents will be recognised in all contexts where the identification or disaggregation of persons by gender is required by law or policy;" - having said that you can print whatever gender on your documents you like, this must be recognised in all contexts. So rapists MUST be allowed in female prisons.

" The right to privacy ordinarily includes the choice to disclose or not to disclose information relating to one’s sexual orientation or gender identity, as well as decisions and choices regarding both one’s own body and consensual sexual and other relations with others.

Ensure the right of all persons ordinarily to choose when, to whom and how to disclose information pertaining to their sexual orientation or gender identity, and protect all persons from arbitrary or unwanted disclosure, or threat of disclosure of such information by others." The fact that that 'woman' has a penis is protected information. Shut up.

"Provide adequate access to medical care and counselling appropriate to the needs of those in custody, recognising any particular needs of persons on the basis of their sexual orientation or gender identity, including with regard to reproductive health, access to HIV/AIDS information and therapy and access to hormonal or other therapy as well as to gender-reassignment treatments where desired;"

This creates an open-ended right to 'gender-reassignment treatment', which may include procedures denied to natal women, such as hair removal.

"Ensure, to the extent possible, that all prisoners participate in decisions regarding the place of detention appropriate to their sexual orientation and gender identity;" Prisoners can choose if they want to go to male or female prison. Yay!

"Take all necessary legislative, administrative and other measures to ensure that no child’s body is irreversibly altered by medical procedures in an attempt to impose a gender identity without the full, free and informed consent of the child in accordance with the
age and maturity of the child and guided by the principle that in all actions concerning children, the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration;" I suspect they have a different definition of free and informed consent....

Marking my place to read in the morning 👍