A Statement on Gender from the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales

Chester, I understand your position and respect it.

But this is a feminist board so the question here is whether the church’s view fits with feminism, not vice versa.

Everyone will have different views on that.

The Church itself, of course, as you very honestly pointed out, is not primarily concerned with winning an argument for its own sake.
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Last, I think it sounds more minor when you haven’t been at the sharp end of the Catholic Church......

Anyway, your exhortations won’t make us all agree to set aside all differences so I think you just have accept that.

'Today we are faced with an ideology of gender which, in the words of Pope Francis:

'"denies the difference and reciprocity in nature of a man and a woman and envisages a society without sexual difference

The difference and reciprocity in nature. This statement is at odds with a gender critical view point.'

I don't think a gender-critical point of view is at odds with the view that the male sex and female sex are different in nature. I think you're attributing a meaning to the term 'nature' that isn't actually there.

And as for the Church perpetuating the gender hierarchy - if by this you mean that the Church thinks men are better/more important/more valuable than women, you are simply wrong. It doesn't.

True sexual equality will occur when both sexes are equally valued, not when they become the same thing.

Men and women DO have different natures!!! Not due to nature but due to socializing!! We are DIFFERENT!!! Thought everyone on the FWR board knew that!!🤔

I feel like you and me are on the same page but there is a massive miscommunication going on!!

Okay HerFemaleness so let's just reject what the Church says despite agreeing with it!!

I don't agree that men and women have different natures. There's a quote in the statement

Today we are faced with an ideology of gender which, in the words of Pope Francis:

'"denies the difference and reciprocity in nature of a man and a woman and envisages a society without sexual difference

The difference and reciprocity in nature. This statement is at odds with a gender critical view point.

Why don't I kick my husband out too while I'm at it!!! After all, he is a man in IT so benefits from the misogynistic shite!!!!

I don't see what this has to do with the ontological subordination of women to men as promoted and preached by most world religions.

I think you can turn up at the same party as the Catholic Church on this issue.

But I’d have to be wearing one of those “I don’t regret my abortion” t-shirts.

Chester has described the church’ own ambitions/opinions upthread.

It's normally the Union of Catholic Mothers who will oppose about certain things which go against the Churches teachings, they are all women - not all mothers or Catholic despite the name either.

We can't say that gender is an oppressive hierarchy and in the next breath go and get pally with religious oranisations who support and promote the gender heirarchy. Not if we want our credibility to remain intact that is.

Okay HerFemaleness so let's just reject what the Church says despite agreeing with it!!

Why don't I kick my husband out too while I'm at it!!! After all, he is a man in IT so benefits from the misogynistic shite!!!!

Thanks I don't agree - when there is one issue that has massive consequences we need to stop arguing and get agreeing!!

FFS Can we just be glad SOME organisation has taken a stand against these lunatics or are we going to argue amongst ourselves forever??

No, because this particular organisation supports the gender hierarchy and believes that gender itself is an innate quality. How can I, in good faith, support an organisation which promotes views on gender that I believe are extremely harmful to women?

*Whether or not a woman choses to do these things, has nothing to do with her priest
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Do you not understand that Irish law is shaped by the teachings of the Catholic Church? Abortion is illegal because the church says it is wrong.

Ireland is such a small percentage of the Catholic Church though, abortion is available in other predominantly Catholic countries, despite what the Church teaches?

The Catholic Church prides itself on being traditional but who would have foreseen that it is actually the front runner regarding women's rights and against the TRAs!! 😮😮

We’re here to argue amongst ourselves.... mumsnet isn’t a political party or workplace.

"The Catholic church is not a friend to women" ...is your opinion, HerFemaleness.

The male priesthood of the Catholic church denies women equality and reproductive autonomy. That doesn't sound very friendly.

Will you provide any evidence for your statement "Back before feminism kicked off the church would argue that women were just a lesser type of human, inferior in role and inferior in essence"?

Not without writing a book, but thankfully somebody has already done gone and done that. The Gospel According to Women by Karen Armstrong.

Your knee-jerk bigotry is ill-informed.

That's rudeI was an active practicing Christian for many years and have read extensively on this. I left church because my tolerance for misogyny ran out.

The problem seems to be, LastGirl, that in the 21st Century Western Social Caste system, the Catholic Church is Untouchable, along with all who sail in her.

"Maybe we should ask whether the Catholic Church is interested in what feminists think, and in reaching out to feminists? Can it overlook the things feminists say and do that it thinks are wrong?"

Thanks - the Catholic Church is interested in everyone, regardless of what kind of "-ist" they are. It truly believes that its message and values are universal and eternal. It's not really interested in winning arguments for their own sake, but rather in proclaiming and defending the truth, as it sees it, about human life and its relationship with God.

In defence of the truth that men are men and women are women, certainly the Church would not refuse to sit down with anyone whose views differed in some ways from its own - unlike some people on this thread/board.

FFS Can we just be glad SOME organisation has taken a stand against these lunatics or are we going to argue amongst ourselves forever??

The Catholic Church has over a BILLION members so let's remember that!!

I seem to remember people falling over themselves to celebrate Rod Liddle - a known despiser of women who happened to throw a few scraps our way so what's the problem here exactly??😖

Interesting parallels between the two debates:

Each side claims to be the underdog in each case. Each side points to the other side’s power and influence.

The arguments on both sides should be able to be made.

And they are being made, loud and clear. To date, women have been denied abortions even when their own lives were at risk- they are the voices that have not been heard, not those of the church.
I hope to God that the 8th amendment is repealed and people move into the 21st century. It chills me to the bone thinking about those poor desperate women having to travel to the UK for a basic human right.

I mean I agree with it as a free speech point.

“I agree, though, that it is a 'sacrifice' to carry and give birth to an unwanted baby; but why, in a society that values free speech and personal responsibility, can the argument in favour of that sacrifice not be made? (I don't want to de-rail into pro/anti abortion either; my point is about free speech, not the content thereof.)”

I agree with this actually. I am perfectly happy to hear that argument and meet it. .

yet another vile and baseless accusation, violets.

Baseless apart from the fact that that is literally what they are doing. If you show me evidence of the church taking a compassionate stance towards women seeking an abortion, I might change my mind.

Whether or not a woman choses to do these things, has nothing to do with her priest

Do you not understand that Irish law is shaped by the teachings of the Catholic Church? Abortion is illegal because the church says it is wrong.

"...plenty of white middle-aged male priests determined to have their say on how evil and sinful these women who dare to get pregnant are..." - yet another vile and baseless accusation, violets.

I agree, though, that it is a 'sacrifice' to carry and give birth to an unwanted baby; but why, in a society that values free speech and personal responsibility, can the argument in favour of that sacrifice not be made? (I don't want to de-rail into pro/anti abortion either; my point is about free speech, not the content thereof.)

The arguments on both sides should be able to be made.

Catholics believe life begins at conception and are up in arms about protecting the innocent unborn. Yet when they are born, they can be abused, forcibly separated from their mothers, treated like dirt and when they grow up, treated like incubators (if they are female).

Maybe the Catholic Church should prioritise the living children and adults rather than bothering themselves unnecessarily about hypothetical lives. How about making amends to the women affected by the Magdalene laundries? How about compensating the thousands who were abused by catholic priests, figureheads of the community, holy men? Then they can go back to lecturing women again.