How would you describe your GC views?

I have some very clear lines,

e.g. it's transwoman not trans woman, for that same reason that it's pineapple not pine apple.

In people I don't know i will use the correct (not preferred) pronoun. This has become very important because using the wrong pronoun clouds the issue. E.g. "She is a woman just like any other and deserves the right to use womens spaces" well that sounds entirely reasonable doesn't it? On the other hand "He is a woman like any other" is obviously absurd and no reasonable person would indulge that.

In people that I know I will make concessions of preferred pronouns to their face or in common friends, just like if they announced they wanted to be called by a nickname.

I have total sympathy for the transwomen i know. They've been sold a lie. They were told "take this pill and you'll be a real woman, get fake boobs and you'll be a real woman, cut your dick off and you'll be a real woman", and at the end of it so be told "Sorry but you're still 100% a man, there was never any chance of being a woman, also you can't go back to being a regular man, all that pain was for nothing and good luck having an orgasm ever again" would be absolutely devastating. I would straight up kill myself if I found myself in that situation. But unfortunately it IS the truth, and continuing to lie to them might save their feelings in the short term but ultimately it's leading more people down that path on false hopes.

Men are male, women are female, those thing have definitions and basis in reality and we can't protect people from reality forever.

Gender identity is a religious viewpoint, like a soul. It's fine to believe in it if it gives you comfort and helps you understand your place in the world but you do not have the right to demand that other people play along with your belief.

A man can believe he is a woman, absolutely. That is his right and I don't see a problem with that. His friends can call him a woman, absolutely, no problem with that. The problem is when we as society at large are asked to go along with a belief that flies in the face of actual reality.

A man can alter his body to appear more like a female, but he isn't and never will be female.

Betty - it was and it will be again. We are not pushovers. They did this underground for years with money buying court cases because they know we aren't pushovers. We are on it now, we will keep sex based rights.

I don't believe "gender" even exists as a thing.
Sex, yes - and I don't want sex segregated spaces for women and girls to be compromised in any way whatsoever. Surely that's a no brainer?

That's great. You are entitled to set your boundaries. In shared female spaces how do your personal boundaries as regards who is an excluded male and who is an included male work? Do we hold a vote? What do we do for those women who will not bear any male? Do they miss out for being 'transphobes' or are their boundaries respected with sex segregated spaces?

@jeanhatchet I think we are experiencing a blip. The move to social media has removed the 'old' ways 'feminism' was passed on. I think it's a one off divide. We won't let it happen again.

Shaped by women. Taught by women. Full awareness of what women have taught me.

In my utopia there would be no need to transition as gender would not exist

I think thats everyones ideal universe, echoed by the trans people I know in RL, both male to female. Or at least there would be no need to for hormones or blockers and surgery to an apparently healthy body. Sadly its not the case, and trans people alone will not change this.

I start from the position that sex is a clearly definable, material reality, while gender is less clearly definable.

I understand that gender dysphoria is very likely an innate biological condition, that is very distressing for those who have it.

In contrast, I believe that the majority of gender characteristics are socially constructed.

I find myself wondering if people with gender dysphoria would be as distressed by their condition, or feel the need to transition, if gender was a more fluid and nobody cared how you present yourself. However, people’s description of the strength of compulsion to remove physical sex characteristics suggest that, for those with dysphoria, the condition is deeper than rejection of social conditioning. Such a deep psychological need to remove functioning body parts is, by most definitions, a pathological condition. Until now, the best way found to treat that pathology and improve the quality of life for people with dysphoria is to change their bodies to appear more like the opposite sex.

The thought of a child going through this type of treatment fills me with horror, especially given the large proportion of those who present as trans who don’t go on to physically transition. That sort of treatment should be absolutely a last resort, reserved for adults. That said, I sympathise with parents who truly believe their child is likely to commit suicide if they are not treated. These families need support, but not from ideologues who don't care if they become collateral damage.

I don’t think there is any justification for people without gender dysphoria to be able to ‘id as trans’. That amounts to appropriating the experience of transsexual people and is completely inappropriate. If you don’t have gender dysphoria, why would you be any different to anyone else who rejects socially constructed gender stereotypes? You aren’t, and you have no reason to claim special protection under the law.

The reason my statement of my position on gender criticism focuses heavily on trans experiences is because people with gender dysphoria are being used as a trojan horse for men to invade women’s spaces.

Certain spaces are separated by sex as a safety measure for women, because of male violence. This is not a perfect system and operates on trust and social convention.

The introduction of self-ID is particularly threatening because it erodes the trust and social convention. So, it becomes conventional to see people of the opposite sex in single sex spaces and socially unacceptable to challenge it. For example, where I ask for a female nurse to take a smear test, and a transwoman nurse arrives. In that situation, I am put in the position of either having the test in a situation in which I have complied with my boundaries being breached, complaining and being accused of bigotry, or not having the smear test, none of which are acceptable.

My biggest issue with the whole replacement of ‘sex’ with ‘gender’ is the totalitarian nature of how it is being implemented. We are being told that the words we use to define ourselves does not mean what we understand them to mean. That we must use them to mean something else entirely or face social approbation. We are being told that subjective reality is less important than completely undefinable or testable feelings and that we must agree that this is the case or we are bigots. That is totalitarianism and I will not comply with it.

(Christ, that was long! You did ask...)

And, to top it all off, they say they look better wearing the the shoe than you do.

BB So that’s gender, and that’s why I hate it, and all the lies and obfuscation around it. It’s a stupid, uncomfortable shoe that everyone would do better to throw in the bin, but which has instead become the thing that I am forced to wear if I am to have words to talk about my sex. It has become the thing I always hated that I am ordered to share with people with whom I have nothing in common. It hurts, I want my foot out of it, I can run better without it.

I want to be barefoot. The way I was born.

Me too!

This is the Feminist and women's rights section of Mumsnet.
I understand that many people have claimed that we are talking about trans rights here but we are not.
We are discussing the effect that laws currently in place and an amendment under consideration will have on women and girls.

Men have claimed for years that women's rights are anti men and now they are claiming women's rights are anti trans. As though this is a zero sum game we are playing with out lives.
Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

In terms of my kids it is VERY easy to draw historical examples of where accepted social norms for men and women were different to today, and geographical differences right now.

Most kids easily understand that its a bit daft to imagine that your biological sex determines your social position, hopes, thoughts and clothing choice.

I say that I don't believe that there are innate "ladies thoughts and actions" and separately appropriate thoughts and actions for men. That this is a regressive ideology. There are socialised norms, but these are hugely damaging, look at the suicide stats for men.

(I usually find that talking about it damaging men makes people listen, obviously no one wants to think about women's inequality.)

I argue that for the individual, being "trans" can alleviate the mental distress of not fitting in, and that we can support that. But moving forward, wouldn't it be better if we were to aim to remove the social boundaries.

Barracker wonderful post!!

Barracker, that’s one of the best posts I’ve ever read on MN.

Oh wow Barracker!

My view is that I quash we lived in a society where men could wear make up and dresses and no one even blinked, because women don’t own femininity. Alas, we don’t so people feel the need to ‘transition’ so it is acceptable to step outside of their gender roles.

I believe every single person deserves to be respected for who they are, their choices, their identities and I would stand alongside a trans person and fight for their rights against abuse.

My issues are the redefining of womanhood to include transwomen, apparently it is transphobic not to call them women but that I, born female, should now be ciswoman.

I do not think transwomen should have political posts reserved for women, I do not believe transwomen should play in female sports. I don not believe that penis retaining transwomen should be placed in women’s prisons.

I am happy with the current law, I have peed with transwomen in the next cubical from me and felt perfectly safe. I reject self ID because it removes that sense of safety.

I use preferred pronouns, i do not dead name, I do not tell them they are male BUT in my heart I know they are so I will never say that transwomen are women.

I think that Womanhood doesn't mean nonsense like liking shoes, flowers, dresses, handbags, being nice, feeling weepy at films, having long hair, wanting men to ogle you, enjoying being a sex object. Manhood isn't about the opposite of all these things. All that stuff is just gender nonsense or fetishisation.

Women are just the adult females of our species who can theoretically have eggs and give birth, men are adult males who theoretically make sperm. As such you can't really become the opposite, it's just a logical reality of being a biological creature in an imperfect universe.

Somewhere along the lines the two sexes became equated with gender nonsense as above (which I used to think we were overcoming). You can of course subscribe to stereotypes and try to change your body to match the opposite one, but that's just entrenching stereotypes (which we should be battling) and harming your body.

If you do transition, yes of course people around you should always be kind and respectful, you shouldn't be abused in any way. You should be able to love, live and work like anyone else. People should absolutely use the right names and pronouns.

But that's part of an implied social contract where you understand that this isn't a magical process which has actually made you completely into the opposite sex. You haven't lived that life and you still don't.

So the flip side of being treated well by society is that you shouldn't abuse it in return. You shouldn't try to silence, threaten or redefine the group you're trying to belong with. You shouldn't claim things meant for others just to feel like you really pass or belong (whether that's applying for an equal opportunities chance like a scholarship, or forcing your right to a relationship with a lesbian when you're not a woman).

It's the latter stuff and stereotypes that really bothers me.

Yes @BarrackerBarmer! Exactly!

What rights do tranwomen/men want that aren't provided by law? I think it's possible to respect transpeople without destroying women's rights. Preferred pronouns should always be a personal choice, not legally enforced in law.

Men are males, women are females. If you have a problem with that you should look at your own beliefs, rather than demanding people accommodate you. Respect is a 2 way street.

@BarrackerBarmer for president 2020

I felt such relief when I finally admitted transwomen are men. It was making me feel very unwell trying to reconcile my reason with my urge to be nice and accommodate people. I was being gas-lighted.

Let's not back down it's a reasonable position.

Adding to what others have said if we continue having a demographic of legally created women/men I would like this to continue to be limited to people with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Given the way some TRA's have behaved towards women in recent years I think there should be as part of the psychiatric process that leads to a GRC an assessment of an individuals views and attitudes towards the opposite sex they want to become. It's very clear that some men who identify as or wish to become women legally actually dislike women very much.

Barracker, you are extraordinary.