How do you teach your daughters to be nice but not nice?

Jordan B Peterson seems a fairly controversial figure though!

thevarsity.ca/2017/10/08/jordan-peterson-i-dont-think-that-men-can-control-crazy-women/

Read some of Jordan B Peterson's work on combating women's lack of aggression where needed and self confidence.
I know he isn't flavour of the month around here because of his thoughts on Marxist Feminism but he gives examples of how he works with corporate women to help them overcome reticence and in some cases triple their salary over a five year period. It is one of the major contributors of the gender earnings gap.

I like the idea of a reading list too! That book was published in the early 1980s but it's like people have forgotten (or are just much younger than me!). It's a little depressing that all the same stuff still needs to be said.

Yes fascinated I had forgotten about the book but now I have remembered I'm wondering what happened to my copy and thinking I should get another for my teen DD for her upcoming birthday!

I totally see what you are saying Titchy about female socialisation - we are definitely on same page - I just think I would just prefer to do it by emphasising equality in all things.

Like the look of that Anne Dickson book. Will read myself.

Is there a list of such resources pinned anywhere on Feminism Chat or Parenting? Could be an idea...

I think it is about teaching assertiveness. I read Anne Dickson's book on this many years ago and went to a class which has kind of stayed with me ever since.

www.annedickson.co.uk/books/a-woman-in-your-own-right/

The copy I had, had a mirrored front cover so you saw yourself reflected in it!

I would never teach my child that she is more or less important than anyone else.

Female socialisation, regardless of background, is to put themselves second. To regard others as more important, with better opinions. Telling your dd she is MORE important redressed that a little - it'll never move her to a position where she actually thinks she's more important but it might move her thinking to understand she is at least equal.

Coupled with my third rule - do the right thing - should increase awareness of how things impact on others without accompanying diva-ness

I think my key message is forget “what will people think”

This was/is practically my mother’s mantra. Even now she’ll say to my kids, put your coat on, or people will think you’re silly.

Every action is tempered by other peoples reaction to it. I have gone through life not doing stuff, and trying to remain as low profile as possible. In case people see me and think negatively.

So stuff what people think. Do what you want without fear of judgement.

I've been thinking about this a lot. We had an assembly in school yesterday (girls' school) with a message of always be kind and generous even if people don't appreciate it. And I thought, I was always kind and generous as a teenager and I was permanently treated like a doormat as a result (by other girls as a teen, but now it's mainly men I can't stand up to). I've never seen the message of it being healthy to have boundaries and it being ok to say no being taught in school.

Awww @Incarnationsofunderstanding, that's exactly the kind of thing I would have said about four months ago.

You are not crap, you are lovely!

I'm working on this still too, so let's move forward together on this with the power of MN behind us

You don’t sound crap! Seriously. Try to avoid putting yourself down. Even in jest. You are not crap. You’re doing your best to help DDs navigate a world which is at times pretty shitty. You are not crap. Repeat ad infinitim. Please.

Read the gift of fear & google the shark cage relationships and use that info to inform your discussions.
Encourage/believe their instincts about people
Let them assess risk for themselves when possible (i mean like climbing trees not trying drugs!)
Teach them to question & encourage them to think (why is does the advert show people smiling etc)
Prioritise bodily autonomy - they dont have to kiss granny if they dont want to (& if they kissed her last week it doesnt mean they have to this week), in tickling etc if they say stop you stop
Tell them it's ok to be rude, if someone makes you feel uh-oh you can shout, scream, run & I will back you up.

That's what I'm doing with mine anyway! Hope you're ok

Oh and two techniques that worked well for my DC were...

If someone asks you a crappy question (gaslighting, straight up mean etc) remember that you are not obligated to answer, instead ask them 'Why do you ask?' or 'What exactly do you mean by that?'

If someone says something mean say very calmly to them 'That was unkind.'

And always always try to keep calm (and cold if the situation needs it), but never upset or angry. Bullies want a reaction, if you give them a neutral non-emotional response, they will head off to find a weaker target.

there is a pinned post at the top of the relationships board on Mumsnet, isn’t there? For when they’re older

It’s not about equal rights now. We need equal respect. That’s more subtle.

Teach them cynicism. About advertising, manipulation in the media, fake news.

“Thinking, Fast and Slow” is great - not feminism but just about human decision making and common pitfalls

I'm prob the wrong person to be giving advice as I basically am you OP.
I've spent my entire life as a people pleaser and always putting everyone else first.

However, I'm learning! There are some amazing posters on here that really make you realize that women need to start by valuing themselves. And that means that if you are uncomfortable in a situation allow yourself to go with your feelings rather than ignoring those feelings in order to 'be nice'.

We've been lucky as we did raise our DD to be kind and decent people, but they also wound up being very strong independent women who do not take any crap. They astonish me on a daily basis.

We did (and still do) also always discuss topics at great length and had them apply critical thinking, analyze all perspectives, always consider the source of their info and research research research, so that may also have helped.

I don't know if any of that helps at all, but I didn't want to read and run, especially as you're me

go and live on the continent for a while. You realise that we Brits are waaaaauyyyy toooo polite - to a fault
Being a bit more direct is nothing to be ashamed of
Sometimes it is needed

Gosh, each to their own but I profoundly with your point no. 2 Titchy. I would never teach my child that she is more or less important than anyone else.

Titchy as you can see from winter it does happen...probably allot more than what you experienced. Im sorry tou went through that titchy...it really is appauling how some people behave.

No really, I went this awful school where the girls were your typical mean girls and I was the scruffy tomboy who dealt with people by punching them, scratching their eyes out or telling them to eff of. I was charming but people left well alone!

Peer pressure is tough, and a little passive aggressiveness can be her friend. Things like you don't have to say yes to something straight away, you can say I'll see, or I'll wait and see what everyone's else does etc, basically saying no but in a roundabout way, so she's not offending anyone, or saying something people can hold against her.

Also if people are treating her like a doormat, learning to find ways to avoid or minimise interaction if possible. A pair of headphones so she doesn't have to speak to certain people on a bus for example.

Also making them understand that you can't please everyone all the time, and ask yourself the question; would that person do the same for me if the situation was reversed?