How do you teach your daughters to be nice but not nice?

@fascinated That is a very good point and one I am constantly guilty of. Thank you for pointing it out, I will try to refrain, but have to admit, it is hard teaching this old dog new tricks

PS that was not aimed at anyone in particular and certainly not anyone on this thread.

This seems an appropriate place to mention this. I’ve been thinking about posting it for a while. I’ve noticed that many posters, even here on FWR, type out an eloquent, well argued post or just a collection of eminently sensible thoughts BUT then at the end, say something sabotaging it like “oh, sorry if that didn’t make sense” or “I hope you can understand my ramblings” or similar. Every time I see this I feel that female socialisation has done a number on so many of us. Can you imagine a man typing such caveats at the end of his post? I honestly can’t. Your opinions are valid. The vast majority of such posts are extremely insightful and well presented. There is no need to apologise for having and stating an opinion.

I have a copy of that on the shelf identifiesasmiddleaged, it's excellent.

Great thread! Don't know quite where to start yet but there's some brilliant advice here

A great book on Assertiveness is A Woman In Your Own Right. I believe it was written in the '70s but it's as relevant now

I have found being middle aged has done wonders for my assertiveness

i did a course a long time ago on assertiveness - people were nominated by their employers to go and basically it was all nice women on the course.

Its a different topic to what you are talking about but somethings I remember from the course (most of it I forgot years ago) was when you say 'no' to someone think of what you are saying 'yes' to instead so it might be 'no I cant do x y z' but that also means 'yes I will have a much needed rest or yes I will put my family first.

Some great ideas here. I love the suggestion of mirroring others' behaviour. I always used to feel the need to be nice to people, however they were acting. As I've got older and give fewer fucks, I don't bother being nice to people who aren't being nice to me. I'll generally be polite, but perfunctory.

I love the description of a pp's daughter as a 'bombastic, warrior preschooler'. I used to have one of those. She's now a bombastic, warrior teenager and she's awesome

Lots of great stuff here.

I also make a point of showing my dd things I am doing to keep us safe in the big city. So if I move down the bus/train because of someone who is shouting or behaving oddly or cross the road to get out of the way of a group of wayward youf I'll speak to her about it explicitly afterwards. I might say 'Why do you think mummy moved/moved you/crossed the road?'

And I explicitly tell her to listen to that little voice that says to move or run or shout because that little voice is keeping her safe. And not to worry about being polite when that little voice is talking to her.

She's getting quite streetwise at 8. She can spot a funny cigarette a mile off But it's really a preamble to listening to her instincts and using them when a pushy guy bothers her in a bar or in the street.

That's good - you can pull rank with your dad!

Love51 thanks, I should say it's my dad saying this not hers. DP is very much in my camp.

Not caring what others think vs societal expectations - you asked how to balance this. I think by getting them to understand why the expectations are as they are- we behave in certain ways to be courteous, and others are courteous to us. People won't want to be friends with us if we behave in certain ways - not sharing our toys with visitors for example.

3stonedown that's the difference, isn't it? We want to raise kids who are capable of not listening to adults because that's what keeps them safe! Your husband isn't listening to your child or her mother - his wishes are overriding hers. She should be in charge of her own body.

Your kids might not be screwed - plenty of people rebel against what their parents do (see up thread someone whose mums mantra was 'what will people think'). But if you want your kids to listen to your words you have to let them see how that course of action worked out for you.

Excellent question, OP.

Unlike you, I'm not a particularly nice person (quick temper, have been known to be vindictive) but my teenaged DD is.

She competes in a team sport which, although mixed sex, is dominated by girls. Recently, she was at the national championships. At the end of the event - the medal ceremony - the female announcer said "The trophies are going to be presented by Mr XYZ, he is a very important man so you must all smile at him"

I was speechless. Later I discussed it with DD, telling her you usually smile at someone who is giving you a medal/trophy because you are pleased to be receiving acknowledgement of your sporting success. But you never need to smile at a man because (a) you've been told to (b) he's deemed to be important.

Ffs!

Great thread OP. Like you I am a people pleaser and have ended up in positions I am uncomfortable with so that I don't offend people. I don't want that for DD. She's not even 2 yet but I'm already at logger heads with my dad about it. He tries to give her a hug and a kiss goodbye and she doesn't want to. I tell her its ok if she doesnt want to and just wave but he insists she will end up rude not listening to adults

I'll go back and read the full thread now.

I find this hard too. However almost all of the really dangerous situations I’ve been in, have been due to me being polite at the expense of listening to my instincts, so I tell them to be kind and polite, until someone makes them feel uncomfortable, and that if that happens then all gloves are off. That their safety is far more important than anyone else’s feelings, and that anyone kind would rather be offended that have them feel uncomfortable anyway, and anyone unkind doesn’t matter.
Read the Gift of Fear op, that is good on politeness. It is something I struggle with myself so I really want my daughters to feel they can be “rude” to anyone they don’t trust.

The biggest part of this is role modelling - what your children see you do not what you tell them!
The best message my parents gave me as a teen was that I could always phone home even if a situation was partly my fault. So if I'd taken drugs or taken a lift with a dodgy character or similar. I don't think I ever actually did, but I felt empowered knowing people had my back even if I had cocked up.
My kids are little but something my neices have commented on is that I always trust them. If they don't want to wear a coat, I trust them to make that decision (they take after their dad and are always warm). My son said 'im poorly" - my neice asked me how come I believe him! Actually he isn't always poorly when he says it - he's usually either too hot or needs a poo! But rather than deny that he feels poorly I say take a jumper off and go to the toilet. I start from the point that he's trying to convey something even if he doesn't recognise what. I think being taught to ignore your feelings can throw your instincts off so you don't recognise danger.

Yes, thank you everyone for fab book recommendations!

Stiletto what I was trying to express earlier - badly! - is that I don't think kindness and thoughtfulness need necessarily be incompatible with assertiveness but it is a very difficult balance to strike (haven't got it right yet).

I've learnt that no matter how 'nice' you are, someone will take a dislike to you anyway. So now I am respectful to others generally but don't go out of my way to be 'nice' /liked. I find that it makes for more genuine interactions as obsequiousness isn't actually all that pleasant a trait anyway.

fascinating yes a pinned reading list would be awesome!

Thanks for this thread, OP. I think I'm a lot like you, too. I have daughters and my eldest is a bombastic, warrior preschooler. Living with her is quite testing at times, and I can hear myself trying to get her to be nice, be gentle, be kind and be bloody quiet (so much 'NOOO!' at the moment) and I think shit, I'm going to turn her into me.

I'm only starting to realise how much of a people pleaser I have always been. I'd always thought of kindness / thoughtfulness as my best quality, and now I'm thinking it might have been a trap.

Teach them to have self-respect and build their self-esteem. Teach them about consent and respecting others' boundaries as well as how to make their own boundaries clear. Teach them that it's a good thing to make other people happy but not to the detriment of their own happiness. Teach them to stand up for themselves and to express themselves. Teach them to be polite and civil, of course, but ensure that they expect this behaviour in return. And if they don't get it, they stop.

I was taught to be polite and I was also taught not to take any shit. It has served me well over the years. Too often women prioritise other people to the extent that they are left unfulfilled and unhappy. If I ever have a daughter, I will tell her that she is the most important person in her own life and she doesn't need to apologise for looking after herself. As a pp has said, women are socially conditioned to put themselves last and I think it's high time that stopped.