How do you teach your daughters to be nice but not nice?

Oh, and another thing I am very wary of is the parenting mantra of "you have to follow through" "you have to do it now you've said it" usually relating to a punishment threat made in haste. NO YOU DON'T! A much better lesson is to say "Actually, I overreacted there. I got it wrong. Let's rewind and do that again but better".

Lass - I do exactly the same with my boys. I think part of the reason I have string boundaries is because I was brought up pretty much like a boy (for reasons I won’t explain here, but I know it is true ...and my dad was at times the primary caregiver so I had a lot of time observing him). Doesn’t stop me noticing that lots of other women my age behave quite differently and I detect female socialisation at play there, and sexism towards them - I get sexism directed at me too but my reaction is often enough to stop it in its tracks. This to me suggests that people put women into (at least) two categories- ones that can be messed with, and ones that can’t (honorary “lads”/men - or perhaps it is more “people worthy of respect”? Anyway, since so many women are harmed by this attitude, I think it is valid to discuss it on a feminism board). I count myself in the latter category, and it sounds as if Lass has been lucky enough to gain membership too- being in a highly regarded profession and having tons of money helps too, of course. And not being burdened by domesticity & children, or not too many, or having the means to outsource that burden helps too. That’s why many very successful women don’t perceive this to be an issue, I think. But I have the grace to accept that my experience of being female is not the same as many (most?) other women.

Totally agree elendon allowing for them to be wrong and it to be ok is so important as they can then take ownership of that and not blame it on someone else.

ferriswheel I think allowing your children to change their minds is very important too. It can be frustrating but ultimately it gives them the power of agency and does let them make the proper choices in later life. Being wrong should never be seen as a 'fault'.

Good points Bertrand.

I am incredibly wary of “trust your instincts”. Apart from anything else, a lot of really crap people project absolute likeability and trustworthiness- that’s part of what makes them crap people.

The really difficult thing is that we really are our children’s first port of call as role models when they are little. So, however hard it is, we absolutely have to model good relationships for them. Which means treating other people well. not allowing ourselves to be treated badly and making sure that any men in our lives behave in ways we would want our sons to behave as adults. “How would I feel if I saw my adult son or daughter in this relationship?” is a very telling, and often uncomfortable question.

And this is not just about “couple” relationships. It’s about friendships, working relationships and how you deal with the man at the garage. “Would I want my adult child to behave like this?”.

'Boys will be boys held accountable for their actions' is the phrase that comes to mind when reading through this very interesting thread.

My 16 year old son is the kindest person I know - yes, he can be moody at times, and has retaliated physically when bullied, but he is innately good. He is autistic and finds it difficult to discern sarcasm and other social interactions but what he does is say politely that he finds it difficult. He has found that his friends will stop and think about what they have said.

I like the points Titchy made upthread. And the book recommendations are interesting too.

I think it is really important that they know they are allowed to change their mind.

Sorry that probabky read a bit more aggressively than i meant it to. I fully agree with you and just meant it's not a personal.attack on boys and girls and that we should carry on working on things than taking it as negatives against ourselves as parents.

identifies it's certainly not a criticism or hatred of boys. I have male friends. I have a male dp as do many others here.

And I certainly don't take it as a criticism if girls (which I have 2 of ) that they are somehow raised to be victims of all this and keep quiet about it.

More than anything I am so grateful to MN and these threads to highlight issues I'd never noticed befire. I am very much one that allowed myself to ignore my feelings and boundries to appease others.

I don't want to do the same with my Dds. I have certainly not been all "boys will do this . Boys will do that" honestly she's come to realise alot of these things for herself.

I think the discussion is helpful for everyone to perhaps help banish the "boys will be boys" and "girls be nice" stereotypes once and for all. And I think it's possible to do so without taking it personally. We all love our children and let's face it whether we have boys or girls we are all faves with some difficult realisations and some work ahead if is to break the cycles.

I think the message I never received that I want my Dds to receive is "it's not your fault"

Excellent point Giles

It's something I obviously think about as someone with sons.

To not rear back defensively when boys are criticised. To make sure my sons learn not to hurt others when they feel inadequate (a major source of crimes against women, I think)

Sorry the first sentence of my last post is confusing. It should say that of all the people in the world you have responsibility towards, the primary one is yourself. You may want to be kind and care for others but to do that you have to have the resources - and you build resources by caring for yourself. Also you should only give away what you can afford never to get back - that applies to love, effort and kindness as much as money. If you give and then resentfully wait for payback you are just manipulating others for attention. Recognition isn't bought.

Lasswiadelicateair the fact that it's similar advice to that you would offer a boy is surely the point of this thread?

How do we teach boys to be nice but not 'nice'? Does that work?

Not when the real lesson boys need is to not be entitled.

Obviously plenty of people on this thread and others are well aware of the situation and are doing their best to raise kind respectful boys.

But the denial and "what about the boys" attitude of people like Lass is probabky why in a park full of children a kid as young as 7 would still choose an 11 yr old girl to "pick on" than boys his own age.

My dd seems to get "trouble" every time she goes to the park these days.

And all from boys

I think a good way to frame it is that of all the people in the world you have a responsibility to look after/protect/be kind to is yourself. I don't mean that in a fluffy 'hug yourself' sort of way, I mean it in that I am not responsible for you and actually if you don't look after yourself you are 1) Failing in your responsibility to keep yourself healthy and sane 2) Potentially setting up a situation where because you're not looking good after yourself, other people will have to do it for you. Now, sometimes, as with illness or injury that's unavoidable but otherwise, if you can take care of you and you don't you are creating problems for others.

A minor example is people who have 'I don't minditis' - people whose response to most requests for a preference is 'I don't mind' because they 'don't want to be a bother.' Unless you are an automaton with no feelings, a lot of the time you will have a preference and actually if you don't tell me a preference you are making me responsible for deciding (minor) things about your life and I don't want that responsibility! Make a decision FFS!

What I don't get about doormats is that they claim to be 'too nice.' Too nice? How is making other people guess what you want nice? I find it quite manipulative, as though the person is standing back, refusing to engage and letting everyone else manage things with the excuse that they don't want to offend people. Why would your preference offend me? Do you think I'm that horrible?

My MIL is a classic 'I don't minditis' sufferer - won't say she wants then stews about how she's ignored, never taken into account etc etc etc. Eh, the way you become a meaningful person in other people's minds is by expressing yourself, preferences being one of the ways. If you fade into the wallpaper and never engage, what do you expect people to do? Magically guess what you want?

I was very proud of my 8 year old daughter a few weeks ago. We live in a country where men are perceived to be better. She was buying popcorn and they had run out but we’re making more. She paid for her popcorn, the vendor took money from the boys behind her as well, all quite normal. When the popcorn was done he served the boys ahead of my DD. She very politely said, I was first. Vendor replied but they are boys, she firmly said, I was here first, serve me first. She got her popcorn.

By the way, expressing negative emotions in a way that other people can hear was something my mum found it difficult to help me with, having grown up with a very angry father who dominated her.

It's been something I've worked on myself, and also focused on a lot with my children (teen boys). I want them to be able to identify how they feel and be able to express it productively. To understand the link between emotion and behaviour in themselves and others

Micah

Hormones are an interesting one. I am peri-menopausal and more emotional.
All the emotions I have are entirely justified, but their expression is just a bit extreme at times. I find myself afterwards thinking 'yes that IS how I feel and I am justified in feeling that way' - like a veil has been lifted on emotions I would have previously squashed. Or expressed with an apology at the end.
it's actually really liberating. Now I am aware of them it's about finding that way of being assertive. Truly, unapologetically assertive.

I don't know if others feel this way about getting older, but I am liking it in some ways

Great thread- I’ve been pondering this myself a lot lately. I still haven’t got the balance right with being flexible and being a pushover. As I take on more responsibility at work I realise that I am often paralysed when I have to make a decision because I’m so worried about what people will think of my decision. But- I am slowly improving and I’ve definitely got better at not qualifying my opinions.

With DD I’m really unsure about how to make her more streetwise without terrifying her.

Also to go with facinations post, i also see “i’m probably being hormonal” at the end of many posts.

Women need to learn that they can be cross, or upset. They don’t need to minimise and exuse it with hormones. I see it quite a lot with posts regarding children- hormones are attributed to certain behaviours.

My mum used to do it to me. If i was ever anything but happy and compliant, i was “hormonal”. No, not hormones, i’m pissed off because i don’t want to go bloody shopping!

My dd’s are hading towards teenage years and i have sworn i will never mention hormones. I try to talk to them about how they are feeling and try to help them work through it.

Sometimes things happen and you have every right to be furious/upset/happy.

How do we teach boys to be nice but not 'nice'? Does that work?

*to think for herself and not be a sheep

• to take more notice of actions rather than words
• that the majority of people are good and trying their best, but a few are not
• hope for the best but prepare for the worst (ie self defence class)
• to be as honest as possible with herself and others
• to be kind (where possible)
• to try and aim for balance in most situations*

That all seems entirely sensible (although personally I would drop the self defence bit) but what strikes me is it is exactly the same advice one would apply to a boy.

I have skimmed this thread rather than reading it in detail but there is something of an air of self-fulfilling doomed to fail in it.

I also make a point of showing my dd things I am doing to keep us safe in the big city. So if I move down the bus/train because of someone who is shouting or behaving oddly or cross the road to get out of the way of a group of wayward youf I'll speak to her about it explicitly afterwards. I might say 'Why do you think mummy moved/moved you/crossed the road?'

Well yes, but I travelled quite a bit on my with my son and I did that. He's 28 and we would still do that.

fascinated - I did find it creepy tbh.

Goose back: I wonder if they would have been told to smile if they’d been boys? Probably not, eh? It’s the unspoken hierarchy - the boys are on the same side as the visitor. They’ll be told to shake hands, probably. The girls are the “cheerleaders”.