How do you teach your daughters to be nice but not nice?

I agree. My parents were benignly sexist, (although the effect of their internalised patriarchy on me hasn't been that benign in terms of cause and effect) but being groped on the bus has caused me less damage than when I met a controlling abuser and that uncomfortable feeling of not being pleasing enough felt familiar.

Frankly, and I admit that my personal experience might be coloring my judgement here, I think we spend far too long telling our girls how to keep themselves safe from strangers and in public places, and not enough telling them how to keep themselves safe within relationships

I agree. That is why I was puzzled at the poster focusing on telling her daughter why they were moving away from dodgy characters on trains. I would have done the same with my son but the reason for doing so is obvious.

I heard a piece on radio 4 yesterday, an Indian man was talking about the problems with rape and sexual abuse in India. He said something like, "We are always careful to ask our girls where they are going, what are they doing, perhaps we need to start asking our sons the same."

BertrandRussell I agree with this to some extent, my girls are not in relationships yet though, so the main issue they do have is drunk guys or other teens on public transport, we live in a city so this is something they already have to navigate and have had a couple of encounters. I am worried about them in personal relationships as once love/emotions kick in, that rational 'keeping oneself safe' thing can go out the window (or you can't perceive the danger).

It isn't just a boy girl thing, some boys need help being assertive, some girls need the opposite. We need to know our kids, as an example one of my sons was always very influenced by what his friends said/did, my other 3, 2 boys 1 girl, were totally different and were more likely to be the influencers (is that a word?) so he needed more help with this than his siblings, it wasn't because he was a boy but because of his personality.

Identifies Yes, that’s true. I have one of each, and I have to stop myself doing the boy/girl thinking when it could actually be Grace/Patrick thinking........

Frankly, and I admit that my personal experience might be coloring my judgement here, I think we spend far too long telling our girls how to keep themselves safe from strangers and in public places, and not enough telling them how to keep themselves safe within relationships. It’s like the focus on stranger danger with little ones- it’s really not strangers they need to worry about.

Bertrand

Yes, that is true. I suppose what I worried about was having different expectations of them Different perceptions of their behaviour. I didn't realise how many gender stereotypes I held until I saw how different my two were from each other and also how there are different ways of being a boy. And what I might have interpreted as down to their sex was actually just their personality or whether they were the first, second etc.

I am new to thinking about a lot of this. Learning so much from MN

I don't tend to worry so much about raising my teen girls in the home but I am concerned with keeping them safe in the big wide and quite dangerous world. Like other people on here, I've taught them to do a runner/move away/not to be polite to strangers or in situations they feel uncomfortable as we live in a city and they do come across this type of thing time to time. I've taught them not to stick around trying to work out whether someone is dodgy, but just to get up and move away, and I've done this in real life with them on the tube to avoid an unpleasant encounter. I also tell them not to be nosy about what others are up to, as there is a small amount of drug dealing round our area, and so peering at others or challenging them is a bad idea- again, move off and away and keep yourself safe. They let me know where they are via mobile, which took a bit of training with 'I didn't remember' in the early days. I don't think I've addressed the issue of sex enough yet so that's on the cards (I mean how to be assertive/keep safe/have fun).

“I was glad when I had 2 boys in the sense that I wondered if I'd even be able to resist treating them differently if one had been a girl. I know I'm not immune to it.”

But I think you should treat them differently. For a start, the outside societal pressures on girls and boys are very different, and they need different strategies to deal with them.

The problems can arise when children go to school because then they absorb the attitudes of others, not only peers but adults too. I have two daughters and a son. We always discussed school after pick up. All my children are kind and good - I dislike the word 'nice' though we all love the biscuit I and the children found the 'debriefing' after school very helpful.

I think this thread is very positive and respectful.

I was glad when I had 2 boys in the sense that I wondered if I'd even be able to resist treating them differently if one had been a girl. I know I'm not immune to it.

I think that I and others (and little girls now) are disproportionately rewarded for being kind and self-sacrificing in a way that boys are not, even if their parents are raising both sexes to be nice

“These are not views I have ever personally held. It is not a mindset the persons who brought me up adopted nor is it how my son was brought up. Equally the persons who brought me up never implanted this "you are a girl- you are doomed to fail" mindset either.”

1. I find it hard to believe that you don’t know that other people hold such views
2. Saying that teaching girls to be assertive and confident is implanting a “you are a girl - you are doomed to fail” mindset is just bollocks.

Bertrand

No. I agree

There's also a huge issue of suicide amongst young men which suggests the same thing

There is a huge issue with male violence and male entitlement in our society. I don’t think we can acknowledge that and simultaneously think that we are doing a perfectly good job of raising our boys.

Wow, Lass. You’re so lucky! Well done.

And it's not just what parents are teaching. Is everywhere books films school.

My dd corrected her football club coach as he kept saying"boy of the match " she told him there were girls here . She also told her teacher that the book should say fire fighter not fireman as women are fire fighters too.

Boys actively exclude girls from certain sports etc

It would be nice if all parents taught their children of both sexes to be nice and kind, but many many of them are very evidently not doing so. I agree though that this is a people thing- anyone who is not assertive will be in trouble in life. However the point being made here is that many women are trying to overcome what they now realise to be additional handicaps due to female socialisation AND the impact of sexist attitudes displayed by others. These are specific issues faced only by females. So I do think there is a sex aspect. Obviously I wouldn’t labour the point with any girls I had, though.

This thread to me gives off waves of negativity about your daughters and their lives- a sort of let's make sure they know from an early age life will be awful

How on earth did you get that?

This is about how to raise them precisely so this doesn't happen. Recognising the differences is so vital for this.

Most of us probably grew up being treated differently to our brothers. And we don't want to do the same. The fight will be there whether we admit it or not. Surely it's better to acknowledge it and work on it than it is to ignore it because otherwise it's making out our kids lives are going to be awful.

I think the discussion is helpful for everyone to perhaps help banish the "boys will be boys" and "girls be nice" stereotypes once and for all

These are not views I have ever personally held. It is not a mindset the persons who brought me up adopted nor is it how my son was brought up. Equally the persons who brought me up never implanted this "you are a girl- you are doomed to fail" mindset either.

But the denial and "what about the boys" attitude of people like Lass is probabky why in a park full of children a kid as young as 7 would still choose an 11 yr old girl to "pick on" than boys his own age

I would hope that my son didn't pick on any one whatever their or his age. I clearly have not expressed myself well but your suggestion that I might have said to him "why don't you pick on someone your own age" is extremely offensive.

My point was that parents should be teaching all their children to be nice and kind , but not be walked over, to have empathy for others but not at the expense of their own needs and rights; to be confident but not bullying.

This thread to me gives off waves of negativity about your daughters and their lives- a sort of let's make sure they know from an early age life will be awful.

Giles

No problem. I didn't read it as aggressive

Bertrand

Totally agree about modeling

Oh, and another thing I am very wary of is the parenting mantra of "you have to follow through" "you have to do it now you've said it" usually relating to a punishment threat made in haste. NO YOU DON'T! A much better lesson is to say "Actually, I overreacted there. I got it wrong. Let's rewind and do that again but better". I agree with this, how do we expect children to acknowledge their mistakes and learn from them if we aren't able to do the same.

Thinking about it my DD is in the family tradition, my Great grandmother kicked out a drunken husband and brought up 4 children alone, worked and bout her own house, not well educated and left school at 12. Grandmother and grandfather also split up, she was amazing and made her living as a cook and she could make a feast out of scraps. My mother was widowed and brought up 3 children and ran the family business. I'm still with my husband but he was the SAHP and I've always worked.

I suppose it would be odd if my kids assumed women stayed in the house and were subservient to men.

I've got both and hopefully taught them the same things, to do the right thing, to be kind to others, not to be afraid to say no, to do their best and aim high. My 4 are all different in some ways but all hard working, DD can be more feisty than her brothers, she is also more focused than 2 of them, very dedicated to her job. I think the biggest difference between them is she was more sorted as a teenager, knew what she wanted and went for it whereas the boys were all a bit more laid back/disorganised but they all got there in the end.