How do you teach your daughters to be nice but not nice?

My parents weren't abusive exactly (they would certainly deny it) but they used to tell me how I felt. Eg if I said I was cold they'd tell me I wasn't cold. It was so insidious. If I had an idea they'd say 'no you don't want to do that'. I didn't even see it for years after I left my x. I didn't know how I ended up with him as there wasn't really any shouting or cruelty at home when I was growing up. I did know instinctively though that I had to toe the line and I knew not to inconvenience my parents by asking for anything that would be 'trouble' because it was never met with a breezy ''sure!''

It was all so insidious and and relentlessly sexist. My brother has had a totally different childhood and a couple of years ago he was praising my parents for being such good parents. I had to bite my tongue. My brother wasn't an easygoing character and a lot of the time I had to just give in and see the film he wanted or have the topping on the pizza that he chose. You name it, the pressure was always on me to give in because he fought back harder and so if I didn't capitulate instantly, all eyes were on me, blaming me for the argument.

So when I met a controlling man who viewed me through never-satisfied gimlet eyes, it felt familiar. And it got worse over time. I ended up with an abusive man because my parents were clueless about parenting, not because they were bad people.

I have a lot more awareness. BUT my parents think they were great parents and they think I'm spiky, too sensitive, hormonal, awkward, paranoid. They think they were great parents. They get angry with me if I don't collude with this view.

So I was PRIMED by my childhood to put up and shut up in a relationship.

I'm out of the abusive relationship now. Trying to have less of an emotional response (ie, hurt) to my parents' ongoing dismissal of my feelings. I mean, there in their early 70s, I know it's not their job to worry about my feelings but sometimes they do things that seem so willfully hurtful that I can't believe it. I'm in shock at the moment over something they did and they haven't acknowledged it at all except to roll their eyes at me like I'm impossible when I asked them if they'd forgotten that I asked them not to.......(the thing they did).

I bicker with my daughter but I encourage her to be brave and ask her what she thinks and what she feels and I tell her she's funny. It's hard to be a good parent but at least I don't believe I am a perfect parent.

I don't know how my parents can look at me, relentlessly single, I mean relentlessly and then congratulate themselves on the great job they did as parents, simultaneously despairing at my lack of achievements in life. I hope that doesn't sound too self-pitying. I'm happy now.

The reason i believe i am a people pleaser, a door matt and ignore my own needs is because i had very little attention and love from my family, was bullied horribly too from 8 to 18. I think its because im desperate to be liked and scared of people disliking me or hurting me so i go along to keep the peace.

There was a lot of comparison in my childhood with others having more or worse things to be upset about and i felt i shouldnt feel angry or upset because there are others in worse situations. I felt thatmy pain is lesser than anyone elses and so i should consider them before me because i can take it. Does this make sense to anyone on here?

So i now validate my daughters feelings, talk about her feelings, give her the words to describe them, discuss and observe the dynamics or manipulation of social interactions in books and on tv.

I praise her kindness but i also let her know i will back her up if she retaliated to insults for example. I was taught not to talk back to teachers or doctors etc. I think its unhealthy as you can speak up without being rude.. and if they were rude they deserve it.

I also am firm about my own need for privacy and my own quiet or hobby time. I tell her that it doesnt mean i love her less and that i have needs like she does and that its important for my own sanity and wellness.

She also saw me speak up when something wasnt right. So i try to lead by example. Some self help books on assertiveness and a lot of therapy helped me get here. Im still not 100% assertive yey though.

Sorry that was all titchy except the but in brackets...

@titchy I love your rules!

Rule 1 - Say what you want to say politely - once only. If the message isn't heard then say it loudly with attitude and peppered with swear words.

Rule 2 - You are more important than anyone else and your needs feelings and opinions are more important.

(I agree, you are more important in your own life, it doesn't mean we can treat people badly, it means they do not get to treat us badly. Eg a mum who invites bullies to your party because no one must be left out I'd how I would interpret that one.)

Rule 3 - Do what you regard as the right thing. The moral high ground is s great place to be with a great vantage point 

I had a very happy home life with parents who adored each other, and a kind and loving Dad who supported me. My first relationship was with someone who nearly killed me. I was vulnerable because I had no idea about manipulation , grooming etc. So it can work the other way too. Men who abuse women are very, very adept at manipulation. Thinking that background plays a part reads like victim blaming to me.
Far better to talk to girls about red flags, how abuse progresses, and how to get out of a relationship early on.

@WrongOnTheInternet brilliant post.

@callies can I ask when was your instinct flawed? And you were wrong to trust it? I don't want you to say if you don't want to.

I think if you are an overly trusting person then yes, your instincts may be wrong. But if you are suspicious of others then generally that is safer. It doesn't mean never trusting but it does mean not automatically trusting.

@fascinated the gift of fear is excellent. I will find a good clip of I can. And agree never put yourself or your kids down, even in jest.

"They are partners but yes twist it to prove what you want to prove."

I honestly wasn't twisting it- I just read what you posted and that's what leaped out at me. You have shown me that I was wrong and I am glad.

Please don't think that confidence and a good home life will protect a woman from an abusive relationship, though. It really, really won't.

I was about to say the same.. funny how it’s always the woman supporting the mans career. Funny how 99% of women are lower paid or have “less” of a career so it “makes sense” for them to give up work or go part time.

Did you miss the bit about them being supportive of each other or did you decide to ignore it as it didn't fit your narrative? As I say above she is ahead of him career wise and earning wise. Her being there to make him stronger does not mean she doesn't have a career or that her career is less important or she earns less. Maybe you need to look at the bigger picture.

And I honestly don’t mean to be picky, and it’s fantastic that he appreciates her so much- but I think it’s interesting that your example is of woman as helpmeet

So you ignore the having each other's backs, her wanting some who she knows 100% has her back, that they support each other and yes he feels supported by her but that doesn't mean she is a helpmeet whatever a help meet is. They are stronger because they have each other, if you are trying to imply he can progress in his career because she is the "little woman" at home making it possible you couldn't be more wrong. She is still ahead of him in career terms and earning more.

They are partners but yes twist it to prove what you want to prove.

It's like people who think that murderers/child abusers/rapists look a certain way (weird, ugly whatever) when they are just as likely to be handsome.

Yeah, that’s what I thought. It’s honestly not true. Don't you think a confident young woman who knows her own worth is less likely to end up settling for a damaging relationship? I look at my DD and her friends, well educated young women with good jobs, and the only one who seems to be vulnerable in relationships is one who had a bit of a difficult home life. She is competent and confident in her career but not confident in relationships. The others don't seem to have her vulnerability. I wouldn't say that is 100% the case for everyone but it does help to protect them.

And I honestly don’t mean to be picky, and it’s fantastic that he appreciates her so much- but I think it’s interesting that your example is of woman as helpmeet............

I was about to say the same.. funny how it’s always the woman supporting the mans career. Funny how 99% of women are lower paid or have “less” of a career so it “makes sense” for them to give up work or go part time.

"These are not either/or situations, so I don't see why we couldn't discuss all of them with our children."

Oh, absolutely- I'm sorry if I implied otherwise.

The same guys that are shouting out of van windows may well be the ones to go home and create hell in their own homes I was going to put something in about middle-class abusers but didn't make the reply longer! Of course that's the case, but it's also equally true that men who are openly dismissive or abusive to women in public are likely to carry that through everywhere including to their own homes. Hidden abuse is still a huge problem and so is being dismissed/patronized or sexually harassed by men in authority, especially in the professions. Doesn't mean women don't need guidance on how to go jogging with dickheads shouting at you, or moving away from over-friendly bus customers, or front it out when you get randomly shouted at by a big group of teens.

These are not either/or situations, so I don't see why we couldn't discuss all of them with our children.

It is tricky and DD struggles with it as she is very kind and gets taken advantage of/walked over a fair amount. I teach her about what a real friend is as so many of her 'friends' are pretty shit to her and she is becoming wise to them. I still tell her to be herself and to be kind though as once these shitty teen years are past that is who I would still want her to be. Her school actually invited her to a 6 week self esteem course recently which I'm hoping will help her as she has a tendency to become invisible as louder voices are always shouting over her (in class and in general life). She is very good that she is always true to herself and doesn't follow the crowd or try to fit in if she doesn't want to. I was a real sheep at her age whereas her Dad has never given a shit what people think and part of his attitude has rubbed off on me and our kids which is good!

"The same guys that are shouting out of van windows may well be the ones to go home and create hell in their own homes"
I am really sorry if I sound as if I'm picking you up on everything you say( in advance!) but I think this is a dangerous message too. Domestic abusers are just as likely to be QCs as white van men.

That’s what I always think, deep dark- however lucky we have been, somebody is the wife /girlfriend/mother of these awful men shouting out of van windows, uttering vile comments in the street etc etc. Those women I REALLY feel for.

Bertrand I agree- that's what I'm saying, I'm not sure my mum's advice was sound, but on the other hand, the idea of that violence is not being a part of a normal relationship or anything to do with love did stay with me. I didn't grow up thinking that was normal and I don't think that was a bad thing, even if it was a crude way to express it (and I grew up in a rough area where it was pretty commonplace, tbh).

As for the street harassment, I think the point I'm trying to make is there isn't a neat divide between strangers and relationships anyway- at some point, you go somewhere and meet someone who was formerly a stranger, and hook up with them or get chatting, and thereby get into a relationship- hence the danger. Street drunks are not the whole problem, I completely agree, but the aggression and nastiness shown in public to women in the Uk is indicative of ongoing hostility to women that gets displayed everywhere, including in personal relationships, sadly. The same guys that are shouting out of van windows may well be the ones to go home and create hell in their own homes. Our domestic abuse rates are a national disgrace.

I’m sorry- I didn’t mean to be dismissive of street harassment and the need to be safe when out amongst strangers. I know they are incredibly important. I suppose what I am saying is that that is something we are all aware of- and a message that girls get from many sources. The dangers within relationships are not really talked about. And forgive me, but the ‘if he lifts a hand to you, just leave” and “a man would only hit me once” tropes are just so unlike what actually happens in real life. And can also be counter productive.

Perhaps we are all driven by our own experiences, then, I was continually street harassed as a young woman and in the UK this is a very insidious and self-esteem damaging experience that is just commonplace, I'm surprised to hear people be quite so dismissive. The same skills of knowing when to get away, not to be polite and not hesitating to get out of dodgy situations and not to give second chances/assume they are misunderstandings hold for personal relationships too, and I have used them both on the street and in encounters with people I know (and had them fail occasionally as well). I am not talking about stranger danger in the traditional sense, but keeping safe if you go out wanting to meet other people in bars and clubs, including friends/friends of friends/people who may have seen around, and have fun (including sexual experiences), which I spent much of my twenties doing. This includes being safe from other women as well as men, my girls have walked through gangs including girls who have said stuff, it's quite intimidating.

I will also repeat my mum's message to me: no-one lays a finger on you and if they do, you get out (get physically safe) and never ever go back. Never. No second chances, no excuses. She told me very clearly this numerous times as a child and I have to say it was a bit bewildering at the time as it's hard to imagine these situations when you are young. Of course that doesn't cover coercive control, I'm going to speak directly to my girls about this as well. I can't say whether this very direct message had an impact or not, I guess if I'd found myself in a abusive relationship, it might have been harder to tell her but in general, the zero tolerance approach to abuse/violence was a good message I think and I've put it into practice on a couple of occasions (reporting a date who got physical, leaving a relationship where the person 'accidentally' hit me).

I also think we have to be kind to ourselves, even if you give the 'right' messages, you cannot control your own or your children's experiences and sometimes, even if you do everything 'right', bad things happen and you shouldn't blame yourself for that at all. I have been streetwise but also attacked, I don't blame myself for not having done the right things on that particular occasion.

“He has had a big jump in career terms and when I was congratulating him he said he couldn't have done it without her support as she gave him the confidence to go for it.”

And I honestly don’t mean to be picky, and it’s fantastic that he appreciates her so much- but I think it’s interesting that your example is of woman as helpmeet............

“I think if they are confident girls they should be OK”

Yeah, that’s what I thought. It’s honestly not true.

Bertrand my daughter and her partner moved in together nearly 2 years ago. It is lovely to see their relationship, very caring and very supportive. She said to me once that she knew I 100% had her back and that was what she wanted in a partner and I think she has it and she is as supportive as he is. He has had a big jump in career terms and when I was congratulating him he said he couldn't have done it without her support as she gave him the confidence to go for it.

I think if they are confident girls they should be OK.

The drunks and so on in a city is something else but actually I think other young women can be a danger. I remember DD being really shocked when the police gave a talk at school to 6th formers. They showed pictures of girls who had been scarred by other girls in "glassing" attacks in clubs. Apparently it was quite a common thing, used to be hair pulling and scratches but now getting a glass in the face and the scars to prove it can happen. Statistically young men are more at risk so with all of mine I always encouraged them to stay in groups and to watch out for friends and make sure friends were doing the same. They do need to know it can be a dangerous world out there but they also need to live so it is a balance to make them aware but not scare them.

I think we get so many parenting books on feeding and toilet training and how to "tame" toddlers but the most difficult things in my opinion are when do you let them go to the corner shop alone? How old should they be before they can go to the park with a group of friends? What time should they be in when they are 15, 16 or 17. Should be let them have some alcohol at home or is that encouraging drink problems or is it teaching them to be responsible. It is much more of a minefield but hard to get good advice in my experience.

Saying that teaching girls to be assertive and confident is implanting a “you are a girl - you are doomed to fail” mindset is just bollocks.

That is not what I was saying. Quite the opposite.