Reconciling competing rights

As well as the sex offenders/ DV victims stats in prisons (sorry to derail) there's also the point that loads of women (don't have numbers but worked in a women's prison) are in prison because of having been manipulated/coerced/victimised by men. It's not just sexual safety - its social safety also. If we (ideologically and unrealistically) believe that prisons are for rehab, I think that also needs taking into account. Women need man free spaces to overcome that. Sorry to be off point..

Many women on here have said similar things, I believe.

That isn't what they mean and I suspect you know that. They wouldn't balk at describing themselves as an actual woman.

Pretty sure they know that thebewilderness. I don't think that was thrown in there casually.

FYI, cis, TERF, and tranny, are all pejoratives that will get your comment reported.

Cross posted.

You're suggesting there should be a third space? In your opinion, should this third space be sex segregated?

You know what - you're dwelling on toilets and I'm going to go ahead and assume that's because you want to trivialise this issue. Because you have repeatedly trivialised this over the course of this thread so that would be consistent.

So let's relocate. Let's talk about prisons.

More than 50% of women in prison have experienced domestic violence We can very safely assume that the great majority of that violence was committed by men.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/female-prisoners-women-prison-domestic-violence-victims-more-than-half-prison-reform-trust-report-a8089841.html

Meanwhile, over 40% of males who identify as women who are in prison are sex offenders.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/up-to-half-of-trans-inmates-may-be-sex-offenders-26rz2crhs

So. Which set of prisoners has the greater right to be incarcerated in a women's prison:

A) men who id as women and are statistically highly likely to be sex offenders
B) women who are statistically highly likely to have experienced male violence

?

Hmm, no, that wasn't an answer to the question I asked. You've just deflected away from that to talk about butch women (who are women and therefore have the same right to women's spaces as any other women) and then trans identifying women (who are still women so.. get my drift?)

Here it is again:
Who do you think has a greater right to women's spaces, women or males who id as women?

Is your answer just 'I don't know'? In your original post you framed this as:
Males who self identify as women
Vs
Women who have experienced male violence and may be distressed at males in their spaces.

Let's put that back in shall we?

Who, in your opinion, has a greater right to women's spaces?

Males* who identify as women
Or
Women who have experienced male violence and may be distressed at males in their spaces.

*another word for this in English is men. Just to clarify who we are talking about here.

Now you claim to be on the level and not a man, but you're being pretty evasive and disingenuous from where I'm standing.

a 5'4 female woman-type-creature partaking of the gay

If you're not a "gay woman" what does this sentence mean?

@GaspingShark
You seem to have missed my question, which was really just asking you what you asked us in the first post on the thread. Did you miss this accidentally or are you avoiding answering?

Here it is repeated for you:

Who do you think has a greater right to women's spaces, women or males who id as women?

@thebewilderness. You're losing me.

Good.

Go back a few decades and you'd absolutely have gay rights having an impact on the rights of heterosexuals in terms of having what they feel are heterosexuals-only spaces violated.

Marriage is not a space. What spaces do you define as heterosexual?
Public spaces are sex segregated, not sexual orientation segregated. Do you mean dating sites? I do not think this analogy holds up. Particularly in light of the fact that transgender organizations are targeting Gays and Lesbians.

Go back a few decades and you'd absolutely have gay rights having an impact on the rights of heterosexuals in terms of having what they feel are heterosexuals-only spaces violated.

How is this the same type of prejudice when many homosexual people consider elements of transgender ideology and activism to be actively homophobic? As a gay woman, what do you feel about the cotton ceiling?

YY Flytipper.

Yes but if I just said if "I'm a woman" or female you would have accused me of being a man who thinks that they are a woman, wouldn't you?

I do not generally make accusations against people here. That would be a violation of the talk guidelines.
I am not going to report this hypothetical hate crime you are accusing me of because I think it ridiculous and also too and besides unlike you I try to avoid logical fallacy.

I don't accept the basis of gender dysphoria as a reason for allowing males into female sex segregated spaces I agree with you because my position is the rights of women out-trump the rights of trans.

As I see it, trans want to share many of the women's spaces out of a desire to be accepted as 'real women', they fear rejection (rather than oft-quoted fear of violence, death and persecution in the men's/neutral spaces).

Women want to preserve their spaces from trans because of sex-based oppression. Trans threaten to take women's places in sports, awards, parliament. Trans who've not had surgery threaten women because they have penises in spaces where women are vulnerable (toilets, changing rooms, GG tents, dorms).

When we answer this question, as a person or as a society, we must be clear. We favour one at the cost of the other.

Although I agree with you that it's a zero sum game, I don't accept the basis of gender dysphoria as a reason for allowing males into female sex segregated spaces. I think a third space is preferable and the recognition that women are a disadvantaged sex class is critically important.

Outside of a feminist perspective on gender and sex, the OP's question is salient. Politically the transgender debate is about competing rights.

As a general point of view, I support oppressed groups. I wouldn't want to see any transgender teenager or adult humiliated, excluded, sexually assaulted, beaten up or forced to resort to suicide. I wouldn't want to see women face the same.

Where the rights of both groups comes into conflict is in women's-only 'spaces': bathrooms, refuges, shortlists, awards and so on.

The question is, should women accept TW into their groups or does that threaten their rights?

When we answer this question, as a person or as a society, we must be clear. We favour one at the cost of the other.

Can we go back to your first post on this thread, which as I read it says:
1 - you believe in recognising peoples right to self id, so for e.g. you think male people who self id as female have the right to use women's spaces
2 - you recognise that males in women's spaces can be distressing for women who have experienced male violence
3 - you want to know whether it's possible to be 'inclusive' of males in women's spaces without causing distress to women who find males in their spaces distressing.

Or, in your words, "does it mean one side just has to grin and bear it?"

So I'd like to ask you - do you think either group has a greater right to women's spaces, women or males who id as women?

Which of these groups, in your opinion, should be told to "grin and bear" not having access to women's spaces?

@BarrackerBarmer just wanted to say the same as everyone else. Brilliant brilliant post