Reconciling competing rights

It's really weird how mumsnet tolerates these woman baiting trolls.

I think they reliably perform a QED function for all of our arguments, tbh.

I hate scary men, especially in a beard and lipstick and will die before i refer to them as 'she'. And you think you're upset when these clowns show up?

[I wish I was in my 20s. That one hurt.]

Ask me why I'm looking on MN for a platform on this topic instead of somewhere/anywhere else.

Bored, I can't believe.

Confused.

And on that note, Im bored now.

It's really weird how mumsnet tolerates these woman baiting trolls.

Not confused, you're definitely here for the kicks. You're still in your twenties?? It usually takes decades to build up to the tedious misogyny you're managing, your dad must be so proud.

This cannot be reconciled externally as the irreconcilability is inside this person.

Yep.

This whole argument can be summed up as men expecting women to do the work for them.

[Hi! Real Me here - Yeah, that's me, mr. fucking sarcasm here drips like an old rusty tap! I've spent almost 3 decades annoying the same woman and now i need more women to annoy]
[sarcasm off]
"dudes like you are the reason why women have to be skeptical about human nature. "
A lack of humanity in the face of adversity makes you part of the problem, not the solution. C'est la vie for everyone.

["And I think you get a kick out of that, tbh." That says more about you than me. Sorry if me not being here for thrills,etc. leaves you confused]

www.refinery29.uk/swimming-pools-for-trans-people

This person expends many words about their own inability to live with their body. They can't cope with their own body. It's the wrong body

And yet, I have to, I have to be forced to cope with the body they can't cope with. It's the wrong body to me too, but that is not ok to them, apparently, that is misguided fear mongering from me. They can't react to themselves without dysphoria but I have to pretend there is no dysphoria, a man is a woman.

This cannot be reconciled externally as the irreconcilability is inside this person.

and you have your proud moment, yet again.

What does this mean? Is this sneering sarcasm?

The OP asked
Is this reconcilable, or does it mean one side just has to grin and bear it?

The answer here is we refuse to grin and bear it. OP was on the women grin and bear it side so it's going to be an unpleasant chat, as we are on the men grin and bear their own fucking problems side.

What is reconciliation? This isn't a fucking tiff we have had, buy us some flowers and we will give in.

But please do get all passive aggressive about dogs etc. I've met more dogs that understand the the meaning of the word no than I have men on these feminist boards, that's for sure.

I don't have any interest in supporting mens rights to ignore women's boundaries and force themselves into women's spaces, no.

The OP doesn't have any interest in supporting women's rights to set boundaries or have our own spaces, not in the long term anyway, but they will begrudgingly allow us our space in the short term until we become enlightened enough to share.

There isn't really a point of reconciliation possible here.

As for faith in human nature - dudes like you are the reason why women have to be skeptical about human nature. And I think you get a kick out of that, tbh.

Pfft...I've met guard dogs with more faith in human nature than this debate has encountered. Barely anyone here (that matters, ie not me) is interested in 'Reconciliation' except the OP. I think OP has found her answers - and you have your proud moment, yet again.

Perhaps next time...

[insert gone-with-the-wind Flounce jpeg here]

The OP refused to answer their own question about who has more rights to women's space - men who id as women, or actual women who would be distressed at having men in their space. The best OP could do was mumble "I dunno" and cast aspersions on women in this category. They said there should be a third space for trans id'ing ppl but refused to answer whether that space should be sex segregated or even what they thought sex segregation is for at all. The OP was rude to posters answering their questions and ruder to posters asking some of their own back. Their behaviour was highly suspect and familiar and several women noticed that.

Mad - you called out nothing. You wrote a post full of nonsense, the only thing I could make out was that you were pleased to have an opportunity to have a go some women. I get the impression this is a hobby of yours? Do the other boys not let you play in their sandpit?

The OP wasn't woman enough, not lesbian enough, whatever.

Actually that was what she said herself. In pretty much those words. She used it to deflect and derail people's responses. No one cares about her identity.

@JoanSummers & all
I would have stayed shtum if this debate hadn't became all about personalities, not issues. I called it out. The issues matter too much. Where else is this debate happening?

The Topic is 'reconciliation. It was angering and frustrating...The OP wasn't woman enough, not lesbian enough, whatever. At one point, she also ID'd as a 'scruffy duckling'...I was surprised no-one asked her to lay an egg.

(There is seriously something wrong if I am saying "I am only here for Feminist Debate.")

Your big post here recently was word salad Mad. There is no way to argue with someone who doesn't make a clear argument. You do that and you might get a better response.

"a technique used during debating that focuses on overwhelming one's opponent with as many arguments as possible, without regard for accuracy or strength of the arguments."

Very apt for this thread, and also my phrase-de-jour.

Gish Gallop

y ddadl orau erio!

Mae'r byd hwn i bawb, gan gynnwys pobl Cymru

Parlez-vous Anglais?

-Dutch society offers drug addicts unjudgemental access to 'shooting galleries' without needing to understand or normalise Heroin. Safety for all is not taken for granted or dismissed as 'needless concerns'. Harm reduction is the aim, not surrender.

-Epileptics walk unseen amongst our children, but no-one freaked out when the guy on my train home started turning blue once. They just loosened his tie and stuck a pencil in his mouth. The guy could have been more careful with his meds, but who cares?

It is not Feminism's job to destroy 'entitlement' or 'demands' in society in favour of requests and courtesy, but that's what needs to happen to fix this without us hating each other forever. Trans people are powerless if not oblivious compared to 1000's of FWR experts. Blaming us for TRA is like blaming the bullets that come out of a gun.

Trans people are horrifically suitable ammunition if "womens's empathy" or some other strain of maternal instinct is the target of whoever is holding the gun.

Sorry, it was not your opening post it was at the top of page 8! And you did not sat 'good' you said 'benefit' but the comment of mine above was directed towards this comment from you OP and not your opening post.

"The bottom line is that I don't believe we're reordering society to benefit a minority of people while disadvantaging another protected group. I believe there's a net and indeed overall benefit"

@GaspingShark it feels a bit tense on this thread so if I ask a question , please only reply of you wish to.

And please see it as a genuine attempt to find some common ground.

In your opening post you spoke about some sort of 'good' and I wondered about the issues around 'gender' being prescriptive. How that is, I feel, not good.

To me gender feels like it is boxing people in, giving expectations and then further tying those expectations to physical sex.

If you or I want to wear certain clothes it does not to me mean anyone should assume which biological sex we are. So I'd like to see a wider freedom around clothes etc and if that were possible I feel it would be good. It doesn't mean a male wearing a dress becomes female.

I think many women, especially women, were supportive of trans people right up to the push for self id and the speaking on behalf of women and speaking 'as women'.

If I spoke on behalf of trans people I expect I'd get pretty short shrift because I am not trans!

So getting back to the idea of increased good, I don't think the current suspicion between women and trans women is good or helps either 'side'.

Your opening post felt like a desire for common ground. Was I misreading that or is that what you think would help?