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Original poster

Laurel Hubbard and Fallon Fox - Joe Rogan, Sam Harris, Maajid Nawaz discussion

42 replies

Freespeecher · 19/04/2018 14:22

Hi all, first time (male) poster.

Have been following the gender debate with interest as it chimes with what I see as a wider free speech issue, with opponents who aren't interested in facts as much as blindly following a line and, if you're against that line for whatever reason you're automatically a transphobe etc.

I particularly admire Maajid Nawaz as he talks and argues so well, and, as part of a larger discussion, they start talking about Laurel Hubbard at the 57:26 mark of this video:

Hope you enjoy it and remember, you are not alone in the struggle against the repression of free speech ;)

OP posts:
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ATailofTwoKitties · 22/04/2018 13:09

It's pretty ironic that posters get offended by the science behind differences between men and women but are happy to say men and women are different when it's comes to trans people.

Ummm. Why is it ironic? Physical differences exist, with whacking great gaps between the averages. Differences in mental/social/emotional/financial abilities are much more blurred and difficult to research because of the overwhelming problems in eliminating other factors.

A little test for you, Antislut: we are a mixed sex couple. Without knowing us, can you accurately say which of us is likely to have each attribute?
Size 13 vs size 4 shoes
Physics degree vs engineering degree
Weight 9 stone vs 17 stone
Plays flute vs plays cello
Height 6 ft 9 vs 5 ft 3
Prefers sailing vs prefers hillwalking

...betcha three of those are easier to assign than the other three.

Maryz · 22/04/2018 12:56

The suggestion to reduce testosterone levels is really stupid. And interestingly, it's being suggested in order to stop women with high levels and intersex athletes (Caster Semenyu for example) competing, not to stop men Hmm.

Even with very low testosterone levels they have all the other advantages of male bodies.

Why can't we just go back to Women Only. Full fucking stop.

boatyardblues · 22/04/2018 08:22

There are loads of stories about the fight online. This one gives a succinct account: gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/tamikka-brents/

Igneococcus · 22/04/2018 08:02

You mean in the comments section boaty ?
Do you have a link to a full list of the injuries?

boatyardblues · 22/04/2018 07:56

I just posted this on the other thread about this:

It would be good if someone with a Times log in could post a fuller description of the injuries Fallon Fox inflicted on Tamika Brent. A broken eye socket doesn’t really do the beating and injuries which Tamika endured full justice. Sad

Igneococcus · 22/04/2018 07:38

In the Sunday Times today:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-athletes-face-tougher-entry-rules-in-female-events-wrrmm7vcz?shareToken=27204cd288bc30d60433b93894d57c25

Predictions that the IOC is going to toughen restrictions, including lowering testosterone levels from 10 to 5 nmol.

LittleLebowski · 20/04/2018 09:59

Yes, thornyhousewife was about to make the same point about Sam Harris, the Charles Murray interview and subsequent Ezra Klein spat. Sam Harris was defending the science and the free speech issues and certainly didn't support advocate looking at racial differences.

thornyhousewife · 20/04/2018 09:52

Re The Bell Curve by Charles Murray.

Harris' position is that he cares very little for IQ as a useful measure, but he cares very much about intellectual honesty and that he invited Murray onto his podcast after he had been physically attacked at a university campus.

For those following this debate, Harris' latest podcast is an explosive exchange with Ezra Klein about his interview with Charles Murray. It makes it crystal clear what Harris' position is.

Also, Joe Rogan would so get it. Wink

Maryz · 20/04/2018 00:26

More about her in this article

I just don't get it. To quote from that article, she is "a man trying to profit in a woman’s sport" - but she is amazed that people see her as such Confused.

And to add to the confusion - this article is from 2015, before the IOC (using her advice as part of the "evidence") changed their rules. At the time, even she admits that size (basketball) or muscle mass (sprinting) could give a transwoman an advantage - she wouldn't say that now, the current dogma is that there is no advantage at all Hmm

cromeyellow0 · 20/04/2018 00:22

Yes, I'm glad that IOC is getting such impartial advice!

And the other, Beth Jones from Loughborough University has the cojones to claim that: "In terms of psychological wellbeing & the distress [trans-identified males] have to go through, the barriers they face—changing rooms, ..., a lot of them have poor mental health—you could argue that puts them at a disadvantage." !!!

Maryz · 20/04/2018 00:15

Cromeyellow, that's like the IOC adviser Joanna Harper

cromeyellow0 · 19/04/2018 23:58

jedenfalls
The stuff.co.nz article quotes two "female" experts on sport who declare that transwomen have no advantage over women. A little probing reveals that they not be entirely impartial on this issue:
twitter.com/MrHenryWimbush/status/978266021516775424

Bespin · 19/04/2018 23:48

The people also went on to excuse the bell curve and I suppose that you all agree with that too. It you want to know where those views lead too please look up that book.

jedenfalls · 19/04/2018 23:08

The one that got me with he mountain biker, is not just that they have the advantage of the VO2 max, height, weight and strength etc, but that someone who,has had a male puberty has much denser bones. If they crash they won’t be as badly injured as a person who has had a female puberty. Which has huge importance in a sport like downhilling, they can afford,to take more risks, to go faster as they just won’t need as long to recover from the same impact.

Third space is the way forward...except they don’t feel ‚‘validated‘

OvaHere · 19/04/2018 22:19

The point Rogan made about fists and how that is where a lot of the power comes from (in the context of fighting) was a good one. When he balled his fist up to the camera you can see how massive his hands are.

Maryz · 19/04/2018 21:56

The article about the cyclist is simple proof that the IOC and other sporting bodies using testosterone level, and testosterone level alone, as the criterium for deciding who is a woman are ridiculous.

She (or he as he was when he competed last year) may have a low testosterone level, but a male heart, lungs, muscles, skeleton, hands and feet and an entire body that has been bathed in testosterone for at least 15 years.

The very fact that this person beat the field of women so comprehensively is proof that they have an advantage.

0phelia · 19/04/2018 21:24

What are biological deterministic views?

It's a denial that socialisation has any influence of people's behaviour.
Black people are naturally more [insert stereotype]
Women are naturally more [insert stereotype]

0phelia · 19/04/2018 21:17

Oh I see so, they've tried to say males are better at playing pool because in pool tournaments the winners are male 99.9% of the time and men are better at maths it's proven because top mathematicians are male 99.9% of the time, without examining sociological conditioning and feminist theory behind this.

But it does get very agreeable during the conversation surrounding TIMs in female sport. Mentions corruption in the IOC. Discusses obvious physiological differences between the sexes.

So in part they agree with biological determinism but also sexual dimorphism durung the discussion. Most feminists will agree with sexual dimorphism but not things like "men are better at maths".

Interesting thanks!

I've heared Joe Rogan discuss TIMs in sport before and he is always right on the money.

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 19/04/2018 20:49

What are biological deterministic views?

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 19/04/2018 20:47

They are right that men are bigger and stronger all over compared to women so even if men take hormones and have surgery they still have an unfair physical advantage over women and there's no getting away from that fact in sports. Everyone can see it and the evidence from observing transwomen in women's sports shows that it is true.

OvaHere · 19/04/2018 20:37

Interesting video. I've never listened to anything by Maajid Nawaz so it was fascinating on that basis alone.

Less sure what I think about Sam Harris, I found some of his arguments a bit wooly so will reserve judgement until I've researched him a bit more.

I thought the discussions around social media and it's impact were good.

Thanks for posting OP, it was interesting to listen to something I might not have come across otherwise.

Bespin · 19/04/2018 20:15

Totally agree Sarah these men are apologists for biological deterministic views and that can only end one way they clearly have other agendas and people need to be careful before championing them.

Antislut · 19/04/2018 20:10

It's pretty ironic that posters get offended by the science behind differences between men and women but are happy to say men and women are different when it's comes to trans people.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 19/04/2018 20:01

No you are not the only one.

The comentaariat are muffled i te same way everyone esle is.

Except here.

Frankly, sport is going to be the arena in which fair play for women will finally get a fair play for women airing but it will take time. The next Olympic games will be a global exposure.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 19/04/2018 19:58

SarahAr

I can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I don't have to agree with everyone. There are reasons why men graviate to certain industries and there are different interpretations and opinion for that. I have no problem listening to them.

But if I disagree with someone on something, it doesn't necessarily make me think they are a fascist