Trans people's experiences in male-only spaces

Male spaces that I can think of include

• public toilets - discussed upthread, but I know both times that my DH has been involved in a fight with a stranger this happened in the toilets (he was followed in)

• changing rooms - both public, such as swimming pools, and private, such as sports clubs, where there are such tight safeguarding rules around minors, camera phones and such that it would be incredible if it was suddenly deemed ok to have mixed sex changing. (I must check some policies of sports associations and see what's changed since I was more closely involved in safeguarding). DH has told me previously that younger players tend to be much more body conscious, and don't like communal showers or the general willy waving that seems to go on in them

• male prisons - where the rate of male on male violence is awful, has been for a long time, and doesn't appear to be getting any better in recent years. I don't understand why there aren't more men lobbying and campaigning for better treatment of male prisoners TBH

• exclusive male spaces - such as golf clubs (where you have to be the "right" sort to get nominated and approved), private members clubs (ditto), and working men's / union clubs (where you also have to be a member). I imagine there are all sorts of ways that transwomen are excluded from these, unless you happen to have won an Olympic gold medal back in the day of course

• non-exclusive but male dominated spaces - such as strip clubs and traditional boozers, where most of the female presence is staff members / workers rather than customers.

Crisp There is a pattern to your posting where you tend to talk at an almost abstract level (e.g. lol at people still as ever with an anti trans bias, still respinning and re-interpreting years old laws, that are in place with no problems).
Which laws? In which way are they being wrongly interpreted? Why are you saying there are 'no problems' when thousands of threads highlight that many people do have problems?
How can any credence be given to your posts when you fail to substantiate your claims?

So long as we keep sex-segregated spaces I'm not bothered if there's another space for trans. It's not our job to sort it out anyway.

Yeah ...Terribly silly to worry about vulnerable female prisoners housed with men. Terribly. Especially when those men are convicted sex offenders.

Very anti trans...

lol at people still as ever with an anti trans bias, still respinning and re-interpreting years old laws, that are in place with no problems.

so silly.

there has already been threads about closing Gay Saunas on here !

and many of us have also noticed how Black women get treated on these threads

Links please.

Because that's not MN. That's not who we are. That's not what we do. And this board is decidedly neither white nor straight in its make up.

foxy liz - I don't understand your post at all.

I have no idea what Clause 28 has got to do with anything.

Every feminist post I have read on here about sexuality and same-sex provision suggests posters are happy to share with lesbians but not with gay men. This is because of our sexed bodies and the dignity and privacy that is afforded by undressing with people with the same-sexed bodies as us.

There are some posters, but the minority, who think transwomen should change in the provision for male-bodied people. Most think that this would fail to afford transwomen dignity and that a third space should be provided.

this is where my solicitors brain kicks in and points out its inhumaine and degrading

I don't normally point out SPAG because it's an arsehole move. But at least 3 errors in one sentence about you being a solicitor... I simply don't believe a solicitor would make that many linguistic errors.

There is a separation between spaces for men and women already. There is a difference. Male and female prisons; obviously sensible and humane. Black and white prisons; obviously racist and wrong. Or do you think all prisons should be mixed?

What you are suggesting is what a few lesbians I lived with practiced some years ago , "Separatism ", wouldn't acknowledge any male persons
but that's the road nobody want to go down , I remember the 1970,s and the NF , and also apartied

this is where my solicitors brain kicks in and points out its inhumaine and degrading
but please feel free to lobby your MP ,

as I keep pointing out any attempts to reintroduce a Clause 28
similar law will see the entire gay community up in arms !
we are not going back to those days !

there has already been threads about closing Gay Saunas on here !

and many of us have also noticed how Black women get treated on these threads

"Male only spaces seem to be about retaining advantage and status eg the masons, gentlemen’s clubs and working men’s clubs."

I wouldn't want to find myself in any of those spaces, but that's OK, they probably wouldn't have me, however I dressed.

What’s changed recently is the population mix - previously, this was a small number of people who had transitioned or were what I’ve often seen called ‘old school transsexuals’ on here. Basically people with gender dysphoria. I would add to that gay men in drag, who I shared toilets with in clubs for years.

There are other 'male spaces'. Prisons, a lot of homeless provision, places like boxing gyms (not strictly but in reality in a lot of them) and so on. There are some that have bitten the dust. Even in my youth I remember there were pubs with a bar and a snug where I was allowed half a pint, not a full one.

I used to be in favour of trans women using ladies toilets, I understood why they would want to use them for safety and I thought sharing facilities with trans women who want to fit in with women was very low risk.

The violence of the TRA, the realisation that a very vocal section hate women and think they are the superior version. The many trans women harassing lesbians for not being attracted to male bodied trans women, largely without censure from the overall trans community, and the implication from that behaviour that some transwomen think all women should be sexually available to them regardless of their personal preferences means I would now feel unsafe.

I don't want to change my stance on this, but if intimidation is being used to force women into a shared space rather than discussion it sets alarm bells ringing.

It comes down to fear of male violence. Some trans women understand and respect this, they are closer to understanding what it is like to be a woman and as far as I'm concerned they are welcome. The activists think they can force women to agree with them through threats of violence and do not understand that it is this intimidation and the threats of violence that is making former supporters start to say No.

This issue is a real non-starter.

First of all, most places I know of already have a third, single stall, gender neutral/ disabled accessible/ family room. If places around you don't then you should campaign for those cause they're great.

Also, in most places where people are allowed to use the bathroom of their choice rather than their sex there is a 3rd space made available for those (women) who feel unable to use that space because of the opposite sex now occupying it. The obvious solution would be to make that 3rd space for trans or gender neutral people in the first place.

Second, no one has an issue with a passing transman or transwoman flying under the radar in the bathroom of their choice. The vast majority of the time it isn't an issue. No one is insisting on underpants checks at the door.

The problem comes when we say that the trans person gets to decide where they should be and no one is allowed to object, an also that sex-altering surgery isn't a requirement. That's a problem because you're just saying that men are allowed to use womens bathrooms and changerooms and women who are uncomfortable with that can go f* themselves.

If you're pretty sure you pass, use whichever bathroom you want but respect if you're asked to leave because you're making people uncomfortable.

If you probably don't pass completely (and VERY few do) then use the facility that is correct for your sex. The argument swings both ways: If it is safe for a woman to pee in the stall next to a transwoman then it is safe for a transwoman to pee in the stall next to another man. Any justification for letting transwomen use the womens room is also a justification for why they should use the mens room. I.e. "tranwoman just need to pee and aren't interested in hurting you" same goes for regular men. "Transwomen are largely non violent and non offenders" same goes for men. "If a transwoman did behave inappropriately they would face the same legal consequences for comitting a crime inside the bathroom as anywhere else" well same goes for men.

The ONLY justification for letting transwomen use the womens bathroom as a matter of policy is that you prioritize men over women. That's it.

And yes, we don't have a problem with transmen using the womens bathrooms if they choose. Even if they were to get the occasional side eye they would only have to say they are biologically female to make everyone comfortable (and again, most wouldn't even need that, they tend to get pegged as butch lesbians). Or use the mens room if you're comfortable with that. Or use the gender neutral space. there are so many options, none of which involve forfeiting women's right to safety as a group.

Thanksforthat

Male only spaces seem to be about retaining advantage and status eg the masons, gentlemen’s clubs and working men’s clubs.

Yes Flora. This is where the competing interests come to the fore. The dignity afforded TW through being treated like a female through accessing provision for females versus the dignity afforded females through accessing provision limited to people with female-sexed bodies.

If the rationale for a provision is based on sexed-bodies (e.g where people undress/intimate card etc.), it makes no sense to involve gender. The Equality Act does allow for provision to be determined by sexed-bodies, where this is a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim. I would be really interested to hear a strong defence as to why people with a beard and a penis should be included on the basis of their gender identity

As crispbutty makes clear, this is about validation of TIMs as women not about safety. That's why they don't lobby for a third space.

The male violence in mens spaces potentially used by trans women is not really the point. Trans women aren't men, even if it was perfectly safe to use either toilets changing rooms etc thy would still use women facilities

actually a really new thing?

Yes. And a hard fought for thing. That’s in danger.

Either that or we somehow, miraculously revert to the honour-based system that has been working pretty much without incident for decades.

Sadly I don't see that happening.

It must be incredibly uncomfortable, to say the very least. Which is why I don't think they should be forced to use male spaces.

A third space needs to be campaigned for, just as disabled spaces were, just as women's spaces were.

SarahAR
Transpeople have been using the appropriate single sex spaces in the UK for over 50 years now. I don't see any evidence of a problem.
We are debating what the 'appropriate' space is, people are sharing views on this. You think transwomen using provision for females is appropriate but that isn't everyone's view.
I am not sure how you can possibly say you don't see evidence of a problem. There are 1000s of posts on this board stating female bodied people feel their dignity, privacy and safety is compromised by sharing some provision with people with male sexed bodies.
As the definition of trans expands and changes, the demands for access to provision for females is growing.
Do you think there is any merit in same-sex provision? Perhaps you think provision should be gender neutral/mixed sex, or that provision should be gender specific rather than sex specific? Do you think there is any merit in differentiation between the sexed bodies when it comes to situations where people need to undress/ have intimate care/examination?

Well, too bad. There are places I don't get to go either.

The problem with a third space is that you can't make anyone use it. We had this discussion during some training at work about homophobic and transphobic bullying. They asked how we could make our facilities more trans friendly (primary school with no known trans kids at present) and someone suggested a third space. I pointed out that trans people would still wish to use the space they identified with and got shut down.