Marks & Spencer protest

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/ms-caught-in-transgender-row-after-actress-liz-carrs-friend-refused-entry-to-changing-room-a3756136.html

Interestingly, it was at the Oxford Street store that M&S a couple of months ago refused entry to a trans person according to this press report. They must have a very inconsistent policy there.

Yeah there are multiple stores I go to locally that have rather stylish young gay men working in them who'll check on you in the changing rooms, bring you alternate sizes, etc. and I'm fine with that. This is for jeans, shirts, etc though, not for lingerie.

Also I think a key point to make is that just because I (or any other woman) am fine with say the young guy who works at Hipster Boutique That Sells Jeans tapping on the door to ask me if I need another size, potentially being there if I step out of the locked cubicle to look in the big mirror in the hallway, offering feedback on fit, and so on, that doesn't mean that all women are, or that they should be mocked or shamed for not being OK with it. And part of the reason I'm fine with it is that all of those stores do have cubicles with doors that lock, changing rooms with curtains that may or may not close all the way are a different scenario.

I think it's reasonable in the current climate to ask questions of companies such as M&S about their policy regarding sex segregated spaces but it's not helpful to frame it around men/transgender people being bra fitters without concrete evidence this has occurred.

I do see the cause for concern though because if gender is enshrined in law superseding sex in every conceivable area then it is feasible that in the next decade any job that a sex exemption would have previously applied to could be held by someone male but who doesn't identify as a man.

Yeah, my stepmother sent me some M&S bras in what should be the right size, but the band is massive, and also stretchier than would be ideal.

Knickers were crap compared to what they used to be too so there seems to have been a decline in quality across the board.

@italiangreyhound Bravissimo girl here, 34HH on right now. Sainsbury's don't even come close to my size. I need to make a store trip and try on every time I buy a bra, because it's quite a trek to the nearest Bravissimo to make returns to and I've tried the mail order thing and not been able to get it right even in months of sending parcels back and forth (also, return postage is expensive). Just because you have the good fortune of wearing a supermarket size, don't assume that we are all as lucky as you. It's girls getting their first bra and women with outlandish bra sizes who need female fitters and private changing rooms, and who will suffer if these are threatened.

Angry, the old system did work properly, but something happened with back sizes as bigger cups became the norm. I wonder if they had a band length that didn’t allow for cup width. I have bras here from the early 90s when larger cups started coming in, and the band size is tiny compared with a 30 now. I wore the very first 30 bras available, they fitted, and I had a 25 inch rib cage. Now I am fatter, nearly 27, and I wear a 28 in everything bar Ewa.

As I understand it the equality act allows for single sex provison where having one sex only is a proportional response? Surely that would include situations where women are alone, semi naked and having their breasts touched ? If it doesn’t then it bloody well should. I have absolutely no issue with a TIM helping me with any other sort of clothing, but I would feel really uncomfortable in a tiny cubicle having a bra fitted.

That's interesting, that they're not trying to push younger girls into the stupidly ill-fitting sizing. What is it that they think happens later on that requires a shift to the add 4 inches sizing?

I would have had some interest in the general themes of the women's rights versus trans rights and have found mumsnet quite illuminating at times for scenarios I wouldn't have thought of.
However I'm finding this thread and the arguments within absolutely ridiculous and to my view it doesn't help with the more serious issues at hand.

My 13 year old was fitted there, and the women fitting was lovely. I am a bra nerd, so I do know how to properly fit a bra, but their girls’ bras are cut to the traditional sizing model, so the 30 back is smaller than a modern adult bra. She did need a couple altered but she wouldn’t be able to wear a 30 in any other bra, she wouldn’t even be a 28. ( she’s 24 around her ribs )

There have been multiple people who've encountered the trans bra fitter at the Oxford St M&S. I'm not about to accuse them all of being liars.

The only way to find out is to ask the public, rather than attempting to shut down any discussion of it by accusing people attempting to discuss it of being horrible bigots (who're making other GC women look bad, if it's a conversation in this space specifically that the speaker isn't happy about)

Susan has not done that. She has pointed out there is no evidence M&S even have unisex changing rooms or trans women bra fitters yet there are posters taking it as gospel this is the case and calling for petitions and boycotts.

The only way to find out is to ask the public, rather than attempting to shut down any discussion of it by accusing people attempting to discuss it of being horrible bigots (who're making other GC women look bad, if it's a conversation in this space specifically that the speaker isn't happy about).

It might be but nobody has provided a single link to it happening. Someone on MN saying it happened to them is not proof. I can make up whatever I like on here and were I minded to do so, could post stories about trans bra fitters to whip up a frenzy on here.

Pratchet I do see your point but it’s already backfiring. Even GC posters on here have expressed discomfort at threads like this which are based on rumour or ‘what ifs’. Additionally there is the fact that the GRA already exists. Like it or not, you will never get a situation where the law does not recognise transgender rights or where it says that a man cannot legally become a woman. There are some narrow areas where protections and policies can be fought for- prisons, rape crisis centres, DV refuges and in medical settings. I prefer to concentrate on those rather than ‘what ifs’ but I do understand that feelings run high on this. I just don’t know whether public opinion would support the changing room issue.

Also, I feel sorry for the poor sod at the end of all this - they may have had no say in where they were posted. Whatever, they would be vetted and trained. And how would it look if M&S just parked the transperson somewhere 'safe' or 'inoffensive'?

There are lots and lots of roles that M&S could assign a staff member who's trans and male to other then the bra department. Is it that you can't think of any, or that you're absolutely determined that TIMs be allowed to do whatever they like even if it's not to the liking of the customers who in theory they're there to assist?

Oops I thought it was fact? I thought somebody had gone for a fitting in London and had been offered a male?

@Pratchet totally agree "Whether or not a particular person exists is no reason for you to abandon the principle of sex segregated space on behalf of the rest of us. That's rather arrogant."

I buy my bras in Sainsbury. No fitter, no fitting room. I try on at home. Does anyone think my human rights are bring breached? And if so, by whom?

Absolutely angua

I was having the exact same rant to my friend in M&S the other day

She was picking up a 34b bra

She is nearly half my size, really small back and approximately 4 stone lighter than me and i wear a 34f/g

Picking battles has not gone well for us: give an inch and a mile is taken. We are budging up until we are pushed off the bench. No more.

Angua yes I agree. Anyone driven out of the M&S bra fitting service should thank their lucky stars. And do not send your teen daughters there to be fitted either- they are useless and you will be setting your daughters up for a lifetime of ill fitting bra wearing.
You’re better off getting a range of sizes and trying them on in your locked cubicle and buying the one that actually fits.
According to their measures I am a 36B. In real life- a 32DD.

As for sex segregation Pratchet I do support that for safety reasons in certain spaces. Shop changing rooms that are staffed are actually not a place where I think it’s essential. Many shops have had unisex changing for years and cubicles are individual so no need to get undressed in front of males of opposite sex. I have also seen no evidence from anyone here (despite asking for it) either that M&S have male-born bra fitters (a rumour on a website is not evidence) or that they even have unisex changing rooms.

I think pick your battles. If you start a petition about something like this (with no proof), how on earth do you expect people to take you seriously on issues such as prisons?

M&S bra fitting needs to be swerved because it is shit

They use the 'add 4 inches' method, which leads to badly fitting bras.

MNetters should actually swerve that, and use shops which fit correctly. Or measure themselves and buy from anywhere (Asda bras are remarkably good if you're in a budget).

I don't see M&S telling men with a 32 inch waist and average backside that they should buy trousers with an elasticated 36 inch waist (but cut narrower across the bum so they apparently fit but aren't terribly comfy to wear)

Is there a petition or anything ?

It's not 'not allowed for in the EA'. It is allowed for. I'm correcting myself.

Somebody wrote earlier: why on earth do people like you find the idea of sex segregated space so objectionable, even contemptible. I'd like to know the answer too.

'Discrimination' as in, you can't sack them for being trans etc.

'Discrimination' around whether they have to be allowed in my daughter's bra fitting space is not allowed for in the Equality Act.

Whether or not a particular person exists is no reason for you to abandon the principle of sex segregated space on behalf of the rest of us. That's rather arrogant.

ijustwannadance the law has already allowed men to become women for 14 years and discrimination against them has been specifically outlawed since 2010.

Hopefully you wouldn’t phrase it like that when politely declining and seeing as we are talking about one person who may or may not even exist I don’t think this will be something women have to encounter on a regular basis.