Do midwives tell you the sex of your baby? Or do they let you make your own mind up?

I have some sympathy for parents who want to avoid sexual stereotypes by refusing to tell people the sex of their child. They dress their child in a neutral way and allow them to develop their personality as they naturally would. To me, this is a good thing in isolation.

but children are not brought up in isolation. These parents are unfortunately too progressive and too far ahead of the curve on this one and it could potentially damage their child. Society needs to catch up quickly and children who are confused as to their sex could find it difficult to socialise and fit in.

I found it easy to proudly tell my children they were a boy or a girl and to also make it clear to them they could do, wear or say whatever they wanted. it really isn't that hard.

@Sarkyharky.

I am not an expect but I think there are some circumstances whereby natal sex does matter. The Equality Act suggests that a person who has undergone gender reassignment can be excluded from a single-sex provision so long as doing so is 'a proportionate means of achieving a ligitimate aim'. Therefore, if you can show that there is a significant and worthwhile benefit derived by limiting access to a provision to people who are female-bodied, then this is permissible.

So, for example, a natal male with a beard and penis could be excluded from female only bay in a hospital ward.

It is helpful to distinguish between sex and gender when working with this issues. The problem is, for a long time, society has used the word gender when sex is being referred to.

A boy has a penis
A girl has a vagina

A boy can have gender reassignment surgery or whatever its called and then he'll be a boy without a penis, and vice versa.

Gasping, sweaty, tearful new mother ...." Is it a boy or a girl?"

Tunnel person catcher friend..... " YOU BIGOT!"

Do midwives tell you the sex of your baby? Or do they let you make your own mind up?

@SarkyHarky You naughty woman

Midwife?

Don't you mean
Tunnel-person catcher-friend?
Special assistant to the push grunter?
Hole-peeker, finger-sneaker, amnio-leaker, baby-seeker?
Front-hole evacuee receiver?

twitter.com/emily_zinos/status/986103633023561729

Hi @Sarkyharky. I am sorry that you think you have been dismissed.

I am not sure why you feel this way. You weren't the person who raised the point about Canada - as far as I can see.

Perhaps it is because your point about 'hate speech' hasn't been picked up?

My answer is that it is not hate speech to categorise a child 'a boy'. The term relates to their biology and is a fact.

If, as they get older, they begin to express a desire to 'reassign their gender', they fall under the banner of the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment'. At this point, someone could be accused of hate speech if the speech was deemed to be an attack on the person on the basis of their protected characteristic.

Did you actually read the link though.

The Canadian authorities have refused to issue a birth certificate without an observation of sex. They haven't turned round to the parents and gone 'you know what you have a good point, from now on we will tell midwives not to observe sex at birth and we will accuse any parents that gender their children at birth that they are committing a hate crime'

They have done quite the opposite. In a country that has adopted self ID.

I'm not dismissing you I just don't think that its a part of the current trans/ GRA debate that is considered a female/feminist issue, which is where you have posted, and that the kind of hyperbole in your OP is exactly what the TRAs are looking for to prove that the women's rights side of the debate are fearmongering. Because at this point that's pretty much what it is, even the 'evidence' from Canada doesn't back up what you are 'fearing' will happen.

The threat to single sex spaces however, is very real.

On the blue/pink point - apparently, up until the 1940’s the societal norm was that pink was for the boys and blue was for the girls. Pink was seen to be closer to red which was seen to be a strong colour

It's true prior to the 20th century all infants were put in white or beige/grey clothing (white more for the upper classes who could use it to display their cleanliness) the first instance of boy=blue, girl=pink was found in Vogue in the 1920's which at the time was extremely influential and whatever Vogue said filled all the shops. By the 1940's it had taken hold.

Gender ideologues are completely ignorant of history.

I've just had a vision of TAs watching One Born Every Minute and when the midwife announces it's a boy or it's a girl yelling at the screen "But how do you know?"

It's so farcical.

Talking of Canada, I noticed that Dr Jack Newman has had to change some language here and there on his excellent breastfeeding site.

There is an explanation of how they induce lactation in adoptive mothers or mothers genuinely struggling with milk - and trans women. All newspeak.

I guess being in Canada they have to. He generally refers to mothers etc on his blogs/ fb.

Given that Canada is often cited as an example of how self-id is unproblematic I wouldn't assume that this will never be an issue. The question reinforces the importance of being very clear about the difference between sex and gender.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40480386

On the blue/pink point - apparently, up until the 1940’s the societal norm was that pink was for the boys and blue was for the girls. Pink was seen to be closer to red which was seen to be a strong colour. Blue was seen to be more delicate and related to the Virgin Mary!

@Sarkyharky
I suppose the answer is, yes the midwife can say you have a baby boy but if the baby boy grows up to be a girl then gender can be changed. I am wondering at where this point kicks in legally - it would be fine to be vague about it if it wasn't becoming a legal issue

It would be helpful if you explain what you mean by 'boy' and 'girl'.

A male can become legally female once they receive a GRC (and vice versa), they can never become biologically female - but I guess you realise that. GRCs are only available to over 18s.

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic (as per the Equality Act) and so an under 18 who is transgender has legal protections relating to their transgender status. However, their protections relating to their sex will remain linked to their natal sex so a male transgirl will have protections relating to their 'gender reassignment' status and protections relating to being male.

Worth pointing out that non invasive prenatal testing is now available on the nhs (am not sure the criteria for it) but I had it privately last year before it was, due to miscarriages and my age (I'd know far too many friends who had recently found their baby had incompatible with life issues) - there's an option to test for sex linked conditions and find out the biological sex. Some of this includes trisomies which might be some types of intersex. There's a more complex one called the panorama test too (possibly still private?)

This can be done as early as 10 weeks and tests fragments of dna from the foetus in the baby's blood. I don't know if this will potentially change the way sex is recorded but it could certainly help if there is any ambiguity.

If you want this thread to be useful, you need to sort out your sex from your gender concepts.

Bingo. If you're using boy with the definition of "human male child" - descriptive, pertaining to sex observed at birth.

SarkyHarky, I think there used to be cases where sometimes the sex was unclear at birth, someone just 'assigned' it and then the person grew up to be clearly of whichever sex. These were genuine mistakes. When I was a midwife, the only uncertainty I had was with babies born at around 20-24 weeks when the genitals were a bit ??? Is that an over-developed girl or an underdeveloped boy? But sex wasn't an issue at a birth at that gestation, other things were more pressing. I don't suppose those 'mistakes' actually happen now with the testing etc. we have available to us. When I delivered a baby, I never announced the sex. I always left it for the parents to discover, if they didn't already know via ultrasound of course.

No I think it's unhelpful because (I believe) gender is a social construct whereas the sex of a baby is observed at birth as a biological medical fact and gender doesn't come into it at that precise point.

Whilst there may be some absolutely batshit individuals out there who at the birth of the baby would kick up a fuss about its observed sex not being the gender they have decided to raise it as etc etc I expect this is astonishingly rare and they would have no legal basis to insist on a different 'gender' being noted because only sex is considered pertinent at that age. Current proposals around changes to GRA won't impact on babies at all as babies, by their very nature of being babies, won't be able to 'self id'.

There are very real and concerning discussions to be had around self ID and the impact that this may have on single sex spaces. I think trying to whip up a frenzy about something like hospitals not being allowed to misgender newborns and new parents being accused of hate speech just dilutes the message and adds fire to accusations that the debate on mumsnet is part hysterical reaction and part bigotry against gender non conformity.

If you want this thread to be useful, you need to sort out your sex from your gender concepts.

As a midwife I have to state the sex of every new born. I have 3 choices on the computer...male, female or indeterminate. Nhs number is allocated at this stage.

I don't think anything is legal until the birth is registered with the Registrar.

So many of the issues raised on these boards would be resolved if society clearly delineated between sex and gender.

Babies who have developed typically will be born male or female and will remain that way for the rest of their lives.
Babies, all being well, will grow into adults and, for some, their gender identity will be important to them.

There is room in society for recognising sex and recognising gender identity.