Why are 'trans' males out of bounds for feminists?

Yes that's the point. The law is indiscriminate. All trans identified people can claim the same protections.

Rather a lot of them come across in their behaviour as "typically male" to me.

I'm curious. Some Trans people (I suspect those with genuine dysphoria) just want to get hormones and surgery and live a quiet life in their chosen gender. These are the trans people who have freely moved amongst us with no more than an odd glance. Today we have 'trans' people who don't want surgery and don't want a quiet ordinary life, they want to be out there and in our faces. Yet when they lived quietly and just blended in, there was none of the issues there are today.

I get that there is a lot of fetish trans people now and also the 'trans fad' but surely things were better when all trans people just got on with life?

Can you really say they haven't received a male socialisation

You never know what's going on inside someone's head and how they feel about themselves.

I am sure that some of them come across as "typically male" and some don't come across as that.

And some will of course be treated by society as male - but not every male is treated the same by other males.

But it seems somewhat at odds with a few of those on the campaign trail in the wider trans umbrella.

Yes.

I don't understand what it means to be trans in the sense of 'identifying' as a woman any more than most of you do.

For me transsexuals have a medical condition that may or may not originate physically but feels as if it does. And that creates a clear mismatch between body and mind.

So you go to science and medicine and try to find out what part has gone wrong and if it can be fixed.

And, if so advised, do all you can to modify the body to match the mind physically as doing it the other way round has not been successful.

So, whilst accepting reality that you do not literally 'change sex', you adapt and alter your physical characteristics as far as possible to match the two and live in harmony.

It is all about achieving balance and to be able to live peacefully as yourself causing as little to fuss to others as you can.

That is my experience of being transsexual and seems like others I have talked to.

But it seems somewhat at odds with a few of those on the campaign trail in the wider trans umbrella.

Several children

I can only speak for me but being trans and feeling different really has fucked up all my life until I transitioned.

I sympathise, it must have been very difficult. But many late transitioners have lived a male life, fathered deferral children, sometimes been in the Army or male dominated workplaces. Can you really say they haven't received a male socialisation?

yetanother.

Yes I think a lot of us have. I have. I have artwork made by a friend which is shocking now when I look at it and see what it revealed of the artist. I look at other artists and see some incredible stuff. This makes me think that the insistence on erasure of the past is a waste of talent and experience, I know there is prurience but there are intelligent eyes. Even Caitlyn still admires Bruce.

Maybe because transwomen are different in socialisation, upbringing and personality to your average male - especially those who undertake HRT and surgery.

There may be some truth to that with those that transitioned young and have lived legally as women for decades.

I'm not convinced about those that transition late in life following successful careers and often have a wife and kids. I don't think surgery or hormones make much of a dint in their male centric POV.

Then there is the self ID crowd who have a myriad of reasons for being trans, none of which seem to be identifying with women.

But the category "transgender" is clearly what counts in the matter of access to women's spaces.

But I guess it's easier for people just to assume that transwoman all grow up with this male behaviour and that being trans has no effect on all on someone as they grow up - with internalised hate, lack of confidence, being bullied for being different, having the shit kicked out of them for being different but not knowing why.

Male socialisation is a wonderful thing

Transgender is such a wide definition of a word these days it is meaningless because even those of us who ARE trans have little idea what it includes or if there is any more common ground between them than saying all fish are fish.

Apart from those that are sharks who will gladly eat the little uns.

This is one reason yetanother and I - and quite a few others independently out there - have started reclaiming the word transsexual, which others want banned.

That has a very clear definition.

What evidence do you have for this

Also how does this apply to late transitioners

Have you ever wondered what it's like growing up, feeling different, not knowing it and how that affects you growing up and even in your 20s and 30s?

Because there's one thing talking about being socialised as a male and there there's the reality of all the shit about growing up feeling different and how that affects you when you grow up and start a career.

I can only speak for me but being trans and feeling different really has fucked up all my life until I transitioned.

All the male people who now have access to women's spaces under the Equality Act. That works for me as a definition in practical terms. I don't see the point in counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I would say it's very clear from this short conversation alone that the stonewall definition of a transwoman serves people who I've seen refer to themselves as trans-sexuals very poorly.

I think you're using a different definition of "transwoman" to me. The definition I'm using is the Stonewall one

The OP is talking about trans males, then transwomen and then trans identified males.

Given all the conversation today - it's very hard to know exactly who and what definitions people are talking about.

I agree, yetanother. Length of transition and earliness of transition are both likely to be factors.

Plus, of course, age brings wisdom and to some degree older social attitudes, such as not being raised in a social media generation where you can say what you want under a pseudonym and be like or hated for it all over the world in seconds.

Try that in your living room when I was growing up and you would have got a smack and learnt not to do it again without at least caring what yours words might do to others.

transwomen are different in socialisation, upbringing and personality to your average male
What evidence do you have for this?

Maybe because transwomen are different in socialisation, upbringing

Also how does this apply to late transitioners?

I think it also depends on your definition of transwoman. If we're all under the stonewall umbrella then that is an incredibly wide definition and will include a whole lot of people don't have different socialisation, upbringing and personality to your average male.

Which is not to say that I don't have a feeling that what you say may well be true regarding more 'tradtional' transwomen, that is people who have transitioned to ease gender dysphoria yetanothertranswoman.