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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour Party confirm that all women shortlists are open to anyone who IDs as a woman

137 replies

CapnHaddock · 17/04/2018 13:52

They did not consult as promised, they did not discuss. They just decided.

Jennifer James has instructed her solicitors.

Fuck the Labour Party. That is the final nail in the coffin for me. Anyone got any ideas about how best to spoil the ballot next month?

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Viago · 18/04/2018 13:12

I hadn't refreshed the page Blush Thanks Vix.

Viago · 18/04/2018 13:11

wine James Cleverly?

SirVixofVixHall · 18/04/2018 13:01

Winewinewinegin I think it was James Cleverly ?

DJLippy · 18/04/2018 12:40

I've started a thread for anybody who wants to add their names to a mass resignation letter from the labour party. You can find out more from this link

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3225484-Labour-Party-Mass-Resignation-Letter

Winewinewinegin · 18/04/2018 12:24

make = male.

Anyone remember who it was?

Winewinewinegin · 18/04/2018 12:23

Though there was one male conservative mp on question time mindlessly repeating the 'transwomen are women' mantra in order to get a round of applause from the under 30 audience.

Not sure if he didn't realise the implications of this or just didn't care. Maybe if he had been asked if we should change the law to make it legal for any man to go into female prisons or changing areas because he says so he would have said 'god no'.

But nobody asked. So the implications of the polite right on sounding phrase 'TW are W' while sitting next to a glamorous looking TW were hidden.

Does that make MP really think someone with a penis is a woman? Does he see any issues for his constituents if the law does? Would be quite a different conversation, no?

Winewinewinegin · 18/04/2018 12:13

At least two other conservative MPs have publically voiced concerns about some aspects of Self-ID. Margot James who has retweeted Janice Turner more than once. And Jacob Rees Mogg mentioned concerns about misuse of access to women's spaces.

marthiemoo · 18/04/2018 12:10

@OlennasWimple It does help, thanks! I actually welcomed the Labour announcement, though I totally see why the lack of consultation is not great. But thankyou for taking the time to explain. There seems to be a lot of defensiveness on both sides which is unhelpfully escalating the debate, though I can understand that everyone's feeling exposed and vulnerable for different reasons.

Angryresister · 18/04/2018 11:55

I live abroad so can't vote in local elections. I am dissatisfied with the Labour position on Brexit, but mainly angry about anti woman stance...also the policy on legalizing prostitution. I think the idea of a concerted campaign to identify why we are not voting labour is a good one, but local elections where Tories are elected cannot be good for anyone. I admire the women who are staying in and attempting to change the party from within, but see no hope with this latest announcement. I am rooting for all women who are prepared to spoil their papers in order to deliver a strong message...presumably some would have normally voted Tory.

TotallyLibrarianPoo · 18/04/2018 06:10

@OlennasWimple Thank you for taking the time to answer me in so much detail!Flowers I really appreciate it.

It's hard sometimes when you're on the outside looking in to know or understand all the ins and outs. Your posts laid it out very clearly. And damn, it does look dire.

What does one do to get some kind of sanity back in the world?Sad

OlennasWimple · 18/04/2018 04:05

One other thing: I obviously don't claim to know for certain, but JJ is very pro-Corbyn. I can't see that she would run against Labour in an election, and they certainly wouldn't agree not to field a candidate against her in order to smooth her path (in the examples cited in my last post, the Lib Dems agreed not to run a candidate so that the independent candidate could benefit from LD votes)

OlennasWimple · 18/04/2018 04:02

Could Jennifer James run an independent campaign? It sounds like she could pull in a fair number of votes.

She could run as an independent in one constituency. Historically this has been more successful as a tactic to raise awareness about a particular issue than to get political representation, though it has happened in the past that a single issue MP has been elected (for example Roger Taylor stood for election on the basis of opposing the closure of the local hospital in Kidderminster). There are two main problems, however: firstly, getting sufficient support in a single place (JJ might get elected if there were a MN Constituency, but we are scattered all over the country, or indeed world); secondly, even when elected it is very very difficult for an independent MP to wield much clout in Parliament. Even the prominent and respected former journalist Martin Bell had limited impact in Parliament - though in the current times of tiny majorities, perhaps that has also changed a little in favour of the independent MP.

I worry about the ballot spoiling as then you're stuck with whoever the rest of the public decide on, but then I don't know... do the spoiled votes make an impact on British politics?

That's a risk... Better to vote for the least worst option or make a political point and end up with the very worst option? Voters who support smaller parties make this sort of decision all the time - is it a "wasted vote" to vote for someone who you know will never get in? Personally, I think that this is a case by case consideration: in my constituency, it's almost certain that there will always be a Tory MP because of the demographics of the area. Therefore, if I don't want to vote Tory but want to support another party I can do so knowing that it won't affect the overall outcome of the election but it might help indicate to that party that they do have a small support base in the area. But sometimes, if it's too close to call, it might be wiser to, say, vote Tory in order to lessen the chances of UKIP getting elected instead, even if that means that it's not really a proper representation of your views.

Spoiled papers only really make an impression on the general public (rather than politics fans) if there are particularly large numbers of them; they are part of a publicised and coordinated campaign; they have an impact on the final result (a sitting candidate doesn't get returned and loses by a similar number as the amount spoiled votes, for example); or the spoiled ballots are amusing or reportable in some way (like this Buzzfeed article on spoiled ballots - spoiler alert (pun intended), there are a lot of badly drawn knobs)

Have the conservatives stated their position since the shite hit the fan? What party was David Davis (the one who let the debate occur at HoC) from? What was his party's stance?

David Davis is a Conservative MP. The Conservatives are being quite quiet at the moment - I suspect that they have been waiting to see where Labour go with the AWS issue (they don't have AWS, so it's not a direct issue for them). Amber Rudd, the Home Secretary, has made some encouraging noises about preserving sex based protections for women, and individual MPs have said supportive things, like Liz Truss supporting Justine MN's insistence that there should be space to debate the issues. But there's not been an official party policy update, as far as I'm aware. The government line is still that there will be a consultation on self-ID this summer, but I can see that slipping and slipping and slipping, as quite simply Brexit and Syria are occupying too much capacity across government and in Parliament to give room for a difficult consultation on something that is not so time-sensitive.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 18/04/2018 03:51

@CapnHaddock What's the source of that statement?

Yes Labour will soon have the line "can't comment on AWS as it's sub judice." The case meanwhile will take years to get to court. Gives Labour an out - they can continue their targeting of Millennium youth with rail passes and Pro Trans rhetoric assuming that the other end of the wage spectrum is lost to the Tories/loyal Labour voters. JC won't give up this position until he's lost the next general election.

I don't know where this leaves WPUK?

I think what's needed is a march around Women's Rights to single sex exemptions, the vote and the right to free speech - the streets are the only place that's listening now and the only place to take this debate to

Italiangreyhound · 18/04/2018 03:40

@TotallyLibrarianPoo

"Could Jennifer James run an independent campaign? It sounds like she could pull in a fair number of votes."

That is a brilliant idea. If she had the good bits of labour and not the crap.

TotallyLibrarianPoo · 18/04/2018 03:25

I'm not from the UK, so I don't know how all the parities work, so I'm just speculating...

Could Jennifer James run an independent campaign? It sounds like she could pull in a fair number of votes.

I worry about the ballot spoiling as then you're stuck with whoever the rest of the public decide on, but then I don't know... do the spoiled votes make an impact on British politics?

Have the conservatives stated their position since the shite hit the fan? What party was David Davis (the one who let the debate occur at HoC) from? What was his party's stance?

Apologies for all the questions, feeling very ignorant hereBlush

OlennasWimple · 18/04/2018 03:25

Also, I've realised that there are a number of elected women's officers in student unions that are transwomen - whilst on one hand student politics can be a bit of a joke, it can also be an incredibly useful stepping stone and learning experience for people who later take up more influential political positions. So, without wanting to sound over dramatic, the flow of talented female politicians is already being reduced upstream, and we will see the consequence of this in due course, I suspect.

OlennasWimple · 18/04/2018 03:17

I think it's simply because no-one has challenged it, Italian. I'm not sure what view a court would take, whether a GRC was necessary to avoid acting illegally or whether it's a matter of party policy on who is eligible to hold the post. Until someone takes it to court, I guess we'll never know. The difference with AWS is that it is specifically mentioned in primary legislation as an area where discrimination is permitted.

I used to wish that the person who came second in the CLP elections in Rochester had taken a legal case against the women's officer I expect you are thinking of (claiming that they had been deprived of a position because of an irrational policy on the part of the Labour Party), but a more interesting legal challenge might be from a man who doesn't claim to identify as a woman, as he is being deprived of standing for a position when there is no material difference between him and a transwoman without a GRC.

Wombman · 18/04/2018 02:52

Very good point

Italiangreyhound · 18/04/2018 02:40

@OlennasWimple

"Does that help?" Immensely, very clear. However, what I do not understands is how we have a trans woman with no GRC as women's officer and this has not been legally challenged.

OlennasWimple · 18/04/2018 01:53

Is it that some people don't want trans women to be included on AWS? Or is it just that Labour HQ didn't consult before making the change?

The short answer is both.

The law that allows political parties to discriminate against men and draw up AWS is specifically carved out in primary legislation, otherwise it could be argued to be unlawful to tell a man that he is not eligible to stand in a particular constituency.

Transwomen with a GRC are legally allowed to be treated as women in almost all circumstances (there are still situations where it is lawful to discriminate or exclude them, such as in a women's refuge). In the past, the law on AWS has been interpreted to allow transwomen with a GRC to be included on AWS.

However, Labour has decided to go one step further and allow anyone who self-IDs as a woman to be included on AWS (and stand for women's officer positions, though that's not something covered by primary legislation). Which obviously opens up an AWS to include individuals who have no legal basis to say "I am a woman" other than the fact that the Labour Party has decided to agree with them - in other words, self-IDed transwomen.

Women have complained about this and were initially just told to shut up, then Labour relented a bit and said that there would be a consultation. Now it appears that there won't be a consultation after all, as the policy statement that has just appeared has come sooner than most people expected and there has been no meaningful consultation first.

Does that help?

DJLippy · 18/04/2018 01:35

@radicalrise

You can email MayDay4Women or DM them on twitter because they are writing a mass resignation letter

[email protected]

That's what I am doing

marthiemoo · 18/04/2018 00:18

Genuine question, because I don't fully understand the arguments here and have avoided getting dragged into the mud-slinging from all directions that's going on in twitter: what is it that's being objected to? Is it that some people don't want trans women to be included on AWS? Or is it just that Labour HQ didn't consult before making the change?

radicalrise · 18/04/2018 00:16

I'd like to resign my Labour membership over this. I've been on the fence for awhile but I've just had it. They don't care about women.

No idea how to go about resigning, so if anyone knows, let me know - or if there's another en masse resignation protest coming up, I'd love to get involved with that.

moofolk · 18/04/2018 00:13

Women have had a vote for 100 years All political parties seem to think that's long enough

Nail. Head.

HopScotchy · 18/04/2018 00:12

Self defeating to limit women's lack of voting to one thing and one 'motif'. They will just use it to identify to themselves how few women care. I won't turn up to draw a penis, I just won't turn up.