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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Parliament hosting Stonewall panel event on trans issues and changes to GRA

88 replies

TheSecretMole · 16/04/2018 16:33

See below invitation sent to all MPs. Anyone heard about it before or who is on the panel? I will try and do some digging and find out any details I can.

Dear MP,

I am writing to invite you to an afternoon panel event on trans equality, held in partnership with Maria Miller MP and PinkNews, at Speaker’s House on Tuesday 15 May, from 12:30 – 14:00.

Since last summer’s announcement that the UK Government would begin to consult on plans to reform the Gender Recognition Act 2004, we have witnessed increasingly negative media coverage and hostility towards trans people.

This event will provide a space where parliamentarians and other relevant stakeholders can hear from trans people and allies about:

• The current levels of transphobia and marginalisation that trans people are experiencing in everyday life
• The positive impact that a reform of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 will have for trans and non-binary people
• Separating the facts from myths on some of the key areas where opponents to reform have focused.

We will also be sharing findings from a piece of research Stonewall has produced with women’s organisations, which demonstrates that many single-sex domestic and/or sexual violence services are already trans inclusive.

If you would like to attend, please RSVP with my colleague Neil McDonald by Tuesday 1 May and they will ensure your name is added to the guestlist. We will then send an official invitation.

Should you have any questions, do let myself or Neil know.

With warm wishes,

Ruth Hunt
Chief Executive, Stonewall

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ChattyLion · 17/04/2018 23:48

Ritz you nailed it.

I haven’t had time today to post all I wanted to about this.. but dear me, if Stonewall are trying to point to Ireland and Malta as progressive lawmakers, in the context of trying to reassure Westminster Parliamentarians about women’s rights, (to say that our rights will be unaffected by self ID), then surely that is a huge tactical own goal?

The misogyny red flag klaxon is immediately blaring for me, seeing Stonewall trying to cite those particular legislatures and purporting to want to take seriously regard how laws affect the lives and freedom of women, girls and children. Hmm
Just look at Ireland and Malta’s stances on abortion.

R0wantrees · 17/04/2018 17:49

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/04/if-mumsnet-can-stand-up-for-free-speech-why-cant-mps/
Long before Mumsnet or the internet even existed, we created a place where people’s views could be heard and discussed, where opinions could be aired and compared. We even employed a group of people to ensure that such opinions would be raised and considered. The place is called Parliament and the people are called MPs. As a result of writing about this issue here over the last few months, I have come to know that quite a few of those MPs, from all parties, think that the sorts of questions the Mumsnetters are asking about gender are quite reasonable and should be answered. But precious few of those MPs will say so in public. They are not willing to do what Justine Roberts has done and say openly that there is nothing transphobic about debating gender and sex, even if some people don’t like some of the things that are said in that debate, because – and this cannot be said enough – there is no right not to be offended.

HereComesTheSun2 · 17/04/2018 09:12

I wonder if Maria Miller will come out of that meeting with answers to any of the questions Janice Turner put to her on her proposals. It's pretty shocking that a Committee purportedly for Women and Equalities just hadn't given any thought to the impact on women and girls:

Maria Miller gathers up her handbag and makes to leave: “I don’t think I’m happy about this. I think I’ve finished . . . I didn’t realise this was such a stitch-up.” I’ve been questioning Ms Miller about a report on transgender rights she produced last year as chairwoman of the women and equalities committee. The government has just announced that it will go to further consultation this autumn.

Many of its recommendations, to redress hate crime against transgender people, to improve access to NHS services and stop discrimination in employment (as seen in President Trump’s cruel, summary banning of up to 6,600 transgender US military personnel), are widely supported. But one proposal that seeks to change the very definition of “man” and “woman” has far-reaching implications.

Justine Greening, the equalities minister, announced her support this week for changes to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, echoing calls by Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader. At present a person who wishes to change gender legally must be 18, demonstrate they have lived in their chosen gender for two years, have a diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” (a mental disorder whereby a person feels they don’t feel they belong in their biological sex) and be questioned by an expert panel.

The heart of the controversy is the view, espoused by Ms Miller’s report, that switching gender should instead merely be a matter of “self-definition”. A man need only “declare” that he is a woman. Your gender is what you feel it to be: there would be no requirement even to take female hormones or have surgery — about 70 per cent of trans women still have intact male genitals — or even “present” as a woman to be legally female. (Some older trans people are troubled by this, believing that it trivialises and delegitimises their struggles to live in their non-birth gender.)

Furthermore, if the law changes, “gender identity” is likely to become a protected characteristic under equalities legislation: ie if you deny a person is a woman or a man when they claim to be, you are guilty of discrimination or hate crime.

When Ms Miller, 53, released her report in January last year she was surprised that criticism came not from conservatives but, as she put it, “women who purport to be feminists”. This may be because feminists, well versed in sexual politics and long-time supporters of gay rights, are among the few people who can penetrate the arcane, confusing terminology.

Many see potential loopholes and conflicts of rights that put women at risk, giving men access to rare female-only spaces such as single-sex wards, changing rooms and domestic violence refuges, designed to keep them safe and private. It is these concerns I put to Ms Miller in her Basingstoke constituency.

Take this scenario: a man enters a female communal changing area, removes his clothes while women get undressed. Now they have a right to ask him to leave. Under gender self-definition, if he said “I identify as a woman” he would be entitled to stay. This, I stress, is unlikely to be a trans woman — many who use women’s changing rooms every day with discretion and no fuss — but could be a sexual predator exploiting the loophole. (There have been a growing number of cases in the US, including a man in Seattle using women’s pool facilities claiming “the law has changed, I have a right to be here”.) Does Ms Miller not see why women fear a conflict of rights?

“But 50 years ago, maybe ten years ago, people felt very uncomfortable about gay people showing their relationships in public but life has moved on.” This isn’t a question of feelings, however, but of physical safety and privacy which, as the author of another report on sexual abuse, she surely understands?

I show her a photograph of a bearded, male-born American called Danielle Muscato who dresses in men’s suits and ties, has made no attempt to transition but nonetheless “identifies as female” and insists on living in a women’s homeless shelter. On International Women’s Day he tweeted: “Some women have penises. If you’re bothered by this, you can suck my dick.”Alex Drummond is a lush-bearded British psychotherapist who claims to be a woman, without any transition, who is “expanding the bandwidth of gender.”

These people should be free from all abuse and discrimination, but do they have the right to women’s spaces? “There will be individuals who will try to use this as an abuse of the system but you cannot disregard the rights of 600,000 people in this country,” Ms Miller says, referring to an estimate of people who express unhappiness with their birth gender. But can you ignore the rights of 30 million women? “No. And nobody’s suggesting that that’s the case.”

So do you think that women and girls should have a right to object to male-bodied individuals undressing among them. “How an individual presents themselves is really up to them,” she says. “Nobody is saying this is an easy set of decisions. I think that is a legitimate part of the consultation.”

Ms Miller says that self-definition is misunderstood “as some amateurish way of trying to recognise somebody’s change. In our report we made it very clear that this would not simply be somebody being able to pull a form off the internet, sign it and call themselves a woman because that would be open to abuse.” Her committee envisaged each person receiving “psychological support . . . to make sure that they’re making the right decision for them” instead of “this quasi-medicalised panel which has brought great distress to transgender people”. She would not confirm that the new self-definition process would ever query an application.

How does she think this rule will effect the operation of women’s domestic violence refuges, several of which submitted concerns to her inquiry that clients would be distressed having fled brutal men if male-bodied individuals were granted access. In Toronto, Christopher Hambrook claimed to be a trans woman to access a refuge then raped residents. “These spaces carry out a risk assessment before individuals are allowed to use them and those that pose a risk to safety are not necessarily one gender.” But 90 per cent of violent crime and 98 per cent of sexual crime is committed by men. Trans women, such as Davina Ayrton, who raped a 15-year-old girl, have been convicted of offences seldom committed by natal females. Would self-identification mean these crimes would be registered as committed by women, skewing the figures? “It should be registered in the gender of the person when they committed the crime.” This would mean that if Katie Brannen, charged with twice raping a man in South Shields, is convicted that crime would be recorded on female statistics even though legally women cannot commit rape.

Sport is another problematic area: self-identification could destroy women’s competitions, allowing former-men with greater musculature and testosterone to dominate. In New Zealand a weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard, has broken national records; in Canada the mountain biker Michelle Dumaresq dominated for years. “Those are already issues that professional bodies have to deal with. And again that is something which needs to be looked at in significant detail.”

I ask her about school sports. In Connecticut Andraya Yearwood, a male-bodied, moustachioed 15-year-old trans girl, has won state championships although she would have finished last in the boys’ competition. Does Ms Miller think this fair to the girl athletes? “Well, I think it’s a bit of a difficult one to answer because boys are not going through gender reassignment when they’re at school.” But what would you say to the girls who lost? “It’s a very difficult one to answer . . .”

She adds: “What I think we’re touching on here is that trans issues are something that still strike a nerve in British society.” Compiling her report she was moved by young trans folk “just trying to get on with their lives in a quiet manner . . . The idea of individuals being not of one gender or another is not a new thing.”

Yet this very idea of “non-binary” or “gender fluidity” is challenged by feminists. Because it assumes that being female is a narrow category: involving pink, make-up, girlie pursuits as opposed to the male world of noise, fun and muddy sports. Isn’t the epidemic of girls wanting to transition — they make up 1,000 out of the Tavistock clinic’s 1,400 referrals — a rebellion against society’s rigid gender strictures rather than a sign that they were “born in the wrong body” and require hormones? This is around the point at which Ms Miller threatens to leave. She relents and we talk a little longer. Although Ms Miller as equalities minister guided gay marriage through parliament, she is at heart a home counties conservative who in 2007 voted against regulations to stop discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. She voted to lower the abortion limit to 20 weeks and for a Nadine Dorries amendment to stop abortion providers such as Marie Stopes giving counselling.

She looks alarmed when I ask about these stances and instead seizes on the government’s decision — pushed by Labour’s Stella Creasy — to fund NHS abortions of women in Northern Ireland. “It is a sticking plaster for the short term. There should be equal rights for women across the UK.” But wouldn’t this mean overriding the devolved assembly, whose major party the DUP is in coalition with the Tories? “I think this should be seen as a human rights issue and I’m glad it is in front of the Supreme Court.”

What does she say to those who believe the government’s sudden announcement of trans reform is to counter bad publicity garnered by allying with the anti-gay marriage DUP or to win young votes. “Absolutely ludicrous!” she cries.

She says that her experience as a woman and a mother who has faced discrimination and sexism has made her receptive to the rights of minority groups such as trans people and their families. She puts the concerns of feminists about material changes to their rights and safety into the same category as religious objections, like those of the Christian bakers who refused to make a cake for a gay couple. “There are always jagged edges to the law which create tensions, and we are going into new territory here.”

HereComesTheSun2 · 17/04/2018 09:04

Even if the Women and Equalities Chair doesn't believe in listening to women, you'd think her previous experience of having made a formal parliamentary committee recommendation on something that wasn't even true (because she'd just taken the word of a trans lobby group rather than listening to any other sources) might make you think that you should consult a bit wider and do a bit of independent research rather than just believe whatever they say:

www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/women-and-equalities/CM9301-Response-Transgender-Equality-report.pdf (See recommendation 11).

womanhuman · 17/04/2018 00:43

Brian Paddick, the man whose gentle raising of the subject cause the LD LGBT twitter tantrum.

Ereshkigal · 17/04/2018 00:39

Ritz Grin actually I don't know why I'm grinning, that's pretty much exactly how it will be!

Ereshkigal · 17/04/2018 00:37

Will do. There was a peer who was interested in having a dialogue as someone wrote to him, maybe he'll go along to this?

Ereshkigal · 17/04/2018 00:36

That's brilliant, well done Thanks

ErrolTheDragon · 17/04/2018 00:22

Excellent!

DrRadFem · 17/04/2018 00:19

Write to your MP and any of the peers and tell them they must come to our event! ✍️💻🗣

DrRadFem · 17/04/2018 00:18

I wrote this to all the MPs and most of the peers last week, looks like the conversation is finally happening! All interested parties must attend both events

Parliament hosting Stonewall panel event on trans issues and changes to GRA
Jaxhog · 16/04/2018 22:24

@errolthedragon thanks for the reminder. I have signed this one.

therealposieparker · 16/04/2018 22:20

Make an appointment and go and see your MP, much better than a letter. Most of them get moaning about bins so something meaty like this is a good thing whether they agree or not.

Ritzsaltedcrackers · 16/04/2018 22:03

I can already predict some of the myth busting.

Self ID is fine, because they have it in Ireland and Malta, and it's fine there, even though they're different cultures (and not known as havens of women's rights) with tiny trans populations and different equality laws. And no way of measuring how many women self exclude from services or are afraid to speak up about men abusing the new self ID laws (misgendering in Malta is punishable with a fine I believe).So women should shut up because it's been fine in those countries for a very short period of time, which means that in the UK none of the thousands of predatory men who live here will ever exploit self ID. And we'll just ignore the pesky cases of men in Canada entering women's refuges through self ID and women suffering increased sexual violence and harassment in Target stores in the USA because of their self ID policies. It's all fine and women are just hysterical bigots.

And women's groups all agree that it's fine, too! We haven't bothered to speak to the actual service users of these groups, just the people who run them. We'll forget the fact that many of them are clueless virtue signalling lib fems who haven't thought this through, and many others KNOW that this is all bullshit but are reliant on government funding and need to be LGBT inclusive so have to say they think it's fine.Again, shut up women!

And anyway, trans people are the most oppressed people in the world. They suffer from transphobia every day. This includes things like having to see tampons branded as feminine hygiene products, hearing about individuals who are pregnant being referred to as women, and seeing posters for plays such as the Vagina Monologues (all real life examples) because vaginas are so very transphobic. Trans women are more at risk of violence than any other group in the world in history and trans children will commit suicide if you don't immediately affirm that they are indeed born in the wrong body and it's definitely not just a phase. No, we don't have any credible statistics to back this up but if we just keep saying it people will believe it's true.

R0wantrees · 16/04/2018 21:49

The best thing to do is to raise the simple point as Justine said in the middle of the interview with JHB today,

I think the problem with this is that the trans lobby have confused an issue about people quite rightfully sticking up for the idea of hard won women's rights around....(interrupted but early JR said women's refuge and rape counselling as examples)

The upshot of the change to the legislation that's been asked for around self-identity, is that you are putting women, including transgender women quite frankly in vulnerable positions potentially.
We need to be able to discuss if we are changing legislation, and for very good reasons because I am totally in favour of recognition, equality and fair treatment of all individuals and letting them live how they live.

But we need to be able to discuss these competing rights and it needs to not just be shut down....and I'm afraid and to be honest India you've got to see the other point of view, you can't just plough on with the [position] 'our issue is the only important one'

which in short is, yes, and what about women and girls?

It will be a lobbying exercise to get MPs committed to the GRA. Most parties are and Maria Miller was very close to signing it off. There is now the beginning of public awareness of the wider implications and the liklehood is that this will be linked to rising levels of transphobia.
There are clear signs just in the response over the weekend that a lot of MN members have legitimate concerns. I would think harnessing this simple point would do a great deal to at the least slow things down and to enable further debate and discussion (which is exactly what TRA don't want to happen.)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/04/2018 21:16

The 'myth' busting is interesting

I can't help wandering if this event might actually backfire and bring more MPs to "peak trans"

R0wantrees · 16/04/2018 21:14

The 'myth' busting is interesting... and a bit worrying!

R0wantrees · 16/04/2018 21:08

I would be interested to know the nature of the evidence for increasing transphobia.... it may well coincide with for example the positioning of LM as Women's Officer, fuelling up the twittersphere, use of blocks and people becoming more aware of the extent to which discussion is stifled.
I think that either these factors are being exploited or there is some deliberate strategy (by some TRAs)

ChattyLion · 16/04/2018 21:03

*bad enough

ChattyLion · 16/04/2018 21:03

That invitation tries to make it sound like ‘opponents to reform’ (Hmm that’s us) only object to the loss of ‘single-sex domestic and/or sexual violence services’.
Actually that is more than bag enough but my objection to self iD goes way, way further than that. Are they going to be holding a whole series of these to address all our concerns I wonder?

SmurfOrTerff · 16/04/2018 21:01

Mouthful - that will be women and girls

Mouthfulofquiz · 16/04/2018 20:56

I haven’t read this full thread. In my opinion, nothing is wrong with stonewall setting out their views to whoever will listen. That’s what happens in a free speech environment. I’m not someone who has reached ‘peak trans’, i still have questions that need answering and research to do.
I’ve never met a trans person whom I wished anything but the best for - however i am not trying in any way to speak for those who have, or who will be disadvantaged by these changes in legislation.
It’s a tricky place to be when you are proud of being a woman, and what you can do... and don’t want anyone to diminish it.
A meaningful discussion must take place and without people who seem to be just involved for the attention (not naming names)

Waddlelikeapenguin · 16/04/2018 20:44

Truscum Grin

Debate is good as long as all stakeholders get to participate.

Terfmore · 16/04/2018 20:26

Upthread is a post about PIE.
I read on twitter today a link to an article -
"Ekman also gives examples of queer theorists, who, in their neoliberal, individualistic blindness, actually claim that men from the global North who are sex tourists in the global South are rebelliously transgressing sexual norms, as opposed to engaging in a sexist, racist act as they use their relative power and wealth to use a poor woman, man or child.
Heather Montgomery, an anthopologist who researched the sex industry in Thailand, was similarly hesitant about making any value judgement about men who buy young children for sex, for fear of oppressing the children. “The children that I knew”, says Montgomery, “did have a ‘sense of decision and control’… The search for victims of child abuse sometimes obscures the acknowledgement of children’s agency.”. Montgomery even goes so far as to say, while acknowledging the bruises, the drug abuse, and the STDs that many of these children suffered, she felt that it wasn’t possible to apply Western models of psychology to these children, and therefore raised a question mark over whether this abuse affected them negatively."

rosa.ie/bought-prostitution-surrogacy-split-self-kajsa-ekis-ekman/

so presumably objecting to child sex tourism will soon be racism? The more I see the battle back against the sex trade is as important as the trans one.

womanhuman · 16/04/2018 19:59

What about women and girls?