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Original poster

THIS is why i don't support womens rights

59 replies

Wilhamenawonka · 15/04/2018 20:32

Deliberately goady thread title there but it's true and please be gentle because I'm in tears writing this.

I'm weak. So fucking weak.
It's not that I don't believe in everything that you talk about here. I'm a true convert and my contribution Is to try and bring my kids up to value themselves and each other and to see the inequalities and barriersthat are there.

But as for anything else i just can't. Simply writing this is causing me panic.

I was brought up by the most misogynistic man you can imagine. Jokes about domestic abuse, women/men are just like that, aggressive, you name it.
You didn't argue. It simply wasn't worth it.

I had value because i earned well. Now i don't and am a single mum and the disappointment is openly strong.

He's sick of feminists complaining and never doing anything.
He thinks that equality of sexes at work is wrong because it should just be the right person for the job.
His mother held the purse strings so financial abuse isn't really a thing.
Women abuse men too dontcha know. His mates were taken for everything in the divorce.
And when he can't ignore something any longer his answer is that he lives in a bubble and isn't part of the world any more, in other words he doesn't want to talk about it.
And on and on and on and on.
Relentlessly and forever.

After i told him about some horrendous stuff my friends had gone through he kept on making jokes about domestic abuse
(one friend had her head kicked in).

But last week, when i had told him that every woman i know has been assaulted, his answer was to say 'are you accusing me of abusing your mother?' (Said in his slow burning angry voice)
THAT was his response. All about him. All about him feeling atracked. Changing the narrative. Avoiding. Being aggressive.

I ended up screaming that every woman i know includes his own fucking daughter (me). And he finally listened. But for me it was too late.

But it's too hard. I've spent my whole life trying not to draw his disapproval because it's scary as fuck. I grew up with it. It's in my dna.

And I'm not the only one. You guys are so brave but this is a massive barrier feminism has too get through. Its not just internalized misogyny you have to fight but womens fear of drawing the wrath of the men they know.
What you're doing is SO important.

I'm too scared to even post a feminist type thing on fb on case he sees it. It's so deeply ingrained and i don't know if I'll every be free of the fear.

I won't be the only one.
And like i said THAT'S why l don't (openly) support you.
I'm sorry.

OP posts:
SecretsRSecrets · 15/04/2018 21:35

Flowers Well done OP! You posted and you didn't have to, that was a great first step. I think there is an AA Milne poem that states 'You're braver than you think'Smile

Now that you've posted, you will find many supportive posters here and this can be your place to turn to when things are rough and it will keep you strong.

All the best to you! moreFlowers

SwearyG · 15/04/2018 21:30

Hey OP. I get that this stuff is really scary. Standing up for yourself when you’ve been taught to always put your abuser first is hard. Super hard. You’ve taken a big step in posting at all.

You know what you can do? You can stand up for women’s rights behind closed doors. It’s a great start for you and a great example to your children. And that’s enough, you know. Enough.

My story about standing up for women’s rights is a bit of a mistake. I’m one of the ManFriday swimmers. Amy started her thread and I joined in, finding a local swim to me, and she and the press turned up and the rest will be history. It’s entirely accidental but I’ve now been in the papers and on the radio talking about this stuff. Just a few weeks before the swim I was at a WPUK meeting where I was too intimidated to put my hand up.

My point is JFDI. Once you’ve done it you’ll be amazed at how easy it is. Be kind to yourself as you get there.

Original poster
Wilhamenawonka · 15/04/2018 21:29

Barracker I'm not really crushed just well pissed off really. And yes scared inside.
I'm talking about social conditioning and how deeply ingrained it is.
The fear of disapproval is so strong in so many people, and that's something that holds people back.
The gender debate is an obvious example but i really think it goes much much deeper than that and have used my story as an example.

OP posts:
TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 15/04/2018 21:25

I think you're making a really important point OP. It's true. Most of us do have to struggle and overcome our socialisation in order to be this gobby. And the moment when you really see it properly for the first time can be very shocking Flowers

You've already taken the first, hardest step saying all this although you were shaking with fear. Keep breaking the rules and it gets easier and easier. I really think you need to get away from your dad though.

AngryAttackKittens · 15/04/2018 21:23

The way you get past the fear is by reaching out to other women, and leaning on them when you need to. You may never be able to talk to your dad about this stuff, he may be a lost cause, and if so that's his fault, not yours.

The first step is the hardest one! If there isn't anyone irl who you can talk to then talk to us.

BarrackerBarmer · 15/04/2018 21:21

Brave post OP.

You know what? You don't have to speak up. Not now, not yet, not till you're ready, not till you want to.

You sound crushed, by a nasty man, and empty of energy right now. So don't think of anything other than finding your own network of support, for now.

Other women will speak up for you. And it's OK.
One day you'll have the resources and resilience to do it too. For today, this need not be your burden.

Original poster
Wilhamenawonka · 15/04/2018 21:16

I've been standing up to him and arguing the toss for years and i know I'm not really weak as a person but the point is still the same.

I guess it's just that I'm really seeing so clearly the structures and hatred and also examining my own responses to them.

Look. Like everyone I'll have internalized misogyny. How could i not in this society.
But that's just one part of it.

Even when it's obvious, there's still a fear in place about challenging it. It's this...
'I understand why standing up for women's rights in general is hard in your situation, because it is like imagining standing up to thousands of men like the angry one you've grown up with. '

For me it was a parent. For others it could be a partner, sibling who knows.

But that fear of mens disapproval is something that i can see and feel but doesn't seem to get talked about.
It's like the fear of men is so ingrained somehow that we tiptoe about even when there's no fear of violence

OP posts:
HopScotchy · 15/04/2018 21:16

You aren't weak. You know your own mind. Despite everything you have been 'taught' you have the strength of mind to have your own opinions. That's not weak. Many women make rational decisions about 'how' they will be active. Anonymity in activism is a valid choice. You can be effective without standing on a soapbox in your parents living room. You do support women's rights you are just trying to work out how to do it without risking too much. That's perfectly OK.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 15/04/2018 21:14

Everyone can only do their best. You sound very demoralised and sad. Your dad sounds awful too. The fact that you've survived your upbringing shows how strong you are.

Hang out with us here and keep joining in with us. Lots of us have felt similar to you or been in abusive relationships. It can be empowering just to get together with other women and chat.

You don't need to make any grand gestures or put yourself at risk in any way. Sometimes it's about baby steps. Are you getting all the help you can so you can be independent from your dad?

EasterRobin · 15/04/2018 21:10

Not everyone can support women's rights in the same way. Some can be loud and shouty and get attention. Some can help with legal or medical or parenting advice or financial support. Some can help the people they know through difficult times. Some can be willing to listen and say "I believe you". Some can be a role model to those who see them. Some can write to politicians and sign petitions. Some can encourage others.

If you care to, you will find your role that suits you at this time in your life and the world will be a slightly better place for it. And just by sharing this message, you are already helping to bring people together and broaden perspectives.

Wishing you a happier time ahead. Thanks

Katara · 15/04/2018 21:02

In my experience, the best thing you can do is stand up for your own rights.

Reading this board and understanding that women have rights is a really important step. You KNOW your father is wrong, and that he is a controlling bully. You are scared of his wrath because that is how he has raised you. I understand that, although in my case, it was my mother, followed by my husband. I was a people pleaser, and standing up for myself caused me so much anxiety. So, I believe you about being scared.

The fact that your father feeds your children means he retains control. The reason children fear their parents (if their parents are not kind or loving) is because they are dependent on them. If you are an adult, you do not need to be dependent. So, the first thing you need to do for women’s rights is learn to live independently. Have you spoken to anyone about support to do this? You need to cut the physical means by which he controls you, then you can start to think about the psychological ones.

If you have only just now stood up to your father, then it is unrealistic to suppose you will turn into a feminist warrior overnight, even if you wanted to. You need to be gentle on yourself, and work on your rights as a person first. It sounds like you need a good counsellor to help you realise where your strengths as a person are.

LassWiADelicateAir · 15/04/2018 21:01

*- Sign petitions

  • Run an anonymous Twitter account to support / share / comment about what you want
  • Write to your MP
  • Have conversations with other women you have contact with (school gates? Baby groups?)
  • Get involved with a local women's group (doesn't have to be a feminist one)
  • Read books*

Yes- agree. Those are all real life practical examples. I don't use Twitter or Facebook (and the more I read about both the less value I see in either)

There will be plenty of relevant campaigns on Change.Org or the official Govt petition site. They require a name but the names aren't visible and you can easily create a new gmail or outlook account if you don't want them emailing your main email address.

Original poster
Wilhamenawonka · 15/04/2018 21:00

I'm not just talking about me though.
It's a place many women will find themselves in.
I really think this is one of the barriers and how do we get through it?

OP posts:
Original poster
Wilhamenawonka · 15/04/2018 20:58

Im bringing girls up and it scares me the world they're growing up in.
Their mum fell into every trap going
Gave up career - check
Married boychild - check
All the childcare - check
And a bunch more

I've only started setting it for what it issince discovering you lot two years ago so in feminist terms I'm still a baby.

That repeated quote about men hating us? Im really really seeing it but don't know what to do and like i said, am scared to say anything.

OP posts:
ReluctantCamper · 15/04/2018 20:57

Wilhamena, you sound so unhappy, I'm really sorry to hear it.

There isn't some weird feminist sisterhood that you're letting down in some obscure way, just a bunch of women trying to live their lives, same as you. Some of us are lucky enough not to be financially dependent on an arsehole, which means we have a bit more freedom to manoeuvre than you.

For heaven's sake my lovely, don't feel guilty that you're letting feminism down or something. concentrate on making life better for you and your kids right now.

concretesieve · 15/04/2018 20:57

I'm so sorry Flowers This isn't your fault - please don't ever think it is.

MorbidMuch · 15/04/2018 20:53

X-post.

If you're worried about your parents finding out, then there are still ways you can help anonymously.

  • Sign petitions
  • Run an anonymous Twitter account to support / share / comment about what you want
  • Write to your MP
  • Have conversations with other women you have contact with (school gates? Baby groups?)
  • Get involved with a local women's group (doesn't have to be a feminist one)
  • Read books
Original poster
Wilhamenawonka · 15/04/2018 20:52

Lass I'm not sure really.
Please try and understand that I'm shaking writing this because for me this is taking a stand and saying what i think for once (yes even an anonymous forum feels scary)

I think I'm saying that so many women are taught not to challenge, not to argue their point, to gain approval Is everything.
We're taught this by our parents who still have a huge hold over many people even in later life.

Pleasing our parents is fundamental to us as we grow. Not everyone can escape that conditioning for various reasons and if you're brought up with misogyny It's hard to fight against.

I'm struggling to explain myself really.
But i see lots of posts here about all sorts of things. Haven't seen anything about this aspect of why women doubt speak up for women's issues

OP posts:
moofolk · 15/04/2018 20:49

This is why we need to stand up for women's rights. Because you're right. It's facing the wrath / anger / bemusement / frustration / disappointment of the men we know all the time and we have to show them it's not ok.

But that last hard. And tiring. And if you're in a relationship (romantic, familial or other) with an abusive or dismissive or a man who doesn't - won't- listen that is draining.

So keep on keeping on. We're all doing what we can. Get hell and support from any friends you can. Don't let the bastards grind you down. Thanks

TheReluctantFundaFeminist · 15/04/2018 20:47

Its very brave of your to post OP x

Can I ask why you remain in contact with your Dad? I know it's not simple but he sounds like a truly vile vile person.

Why do you feel you need to seek his approval or opinion still? Absolutely not judging at all but just trying to see if there is a way you can distance yourself from him? Flowers

MorbidMuch · 15/04/2018 20:46

I'm so sorry for your experiences OP.

You are NOT weak.

It sounds like you have put up with relentless toxic words designed to make you feel worthless. You aren't.

I understand why standing up for women's rights in general is hard in your situation, because it is like imagining standing up to thousands of men like the angry one you've grown up with.

Do you need help to get some distance from him?

SusanBunch · 15/04/2018 20:46

OP, my dad is also an open misogynist and was also violent to my mum in front of his kids. I support women’s rights 100% and the day I stopped giving a shit about what he thought, my life got infinitely easier. You’re your own person and you have a choice. Post what you like on Facebook- you know the reality and the truth. Why listen to what some bitter twisted old man thinks? Life surely is too short.

Original poster
Wilhamenawonka · 15/04/2018 20:46

Badger it wasn't a kind response but it was an understandable one.
I see terf here a lot and she's so brave and also one of the ladies who has helped to open my eyes as part of the gender debate sono offense taken

The question is how to help people like me who want to get involved but are worried.
For example my parents pay for our food right now. I can't risk that.
It's a horrible trap (and one I'm desperately Trying to get out of)

OP posts:
LassWiADelicateAir · 15/04/2018 20:45

I'm scared of openly speaking up about all the important issues we face as women

Of speaking up to whom and in what circumstances ? Your post refers to your father. Do you still live with him?

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 15/04/2018 20:44

Oh sweetheart, this is how they keep us down.

So sorry you had to put up with this. Maybe do one brave thing each day, just one, see where courage takes you. Flowers