THIS is why i don't support womens rights

You have already achieved a great deal by posting here. By recognising you want things to be different for your daughters.

Yes, marches and media campaigns are important, but little everyday things are too. A signature on a petition, a supportive post to someone on a message board. A kind smile and a helping hand to the mum who has a toddler channeling the Tasmanian Devil at the checkout.

From little acorns mighty oaks will grow.

OP I am only an occasional lurker on this topic so have nothing insightful to add on your greater point about internalising misogyny and the fear of speaking out.

What strikes me about your posts is that you seem to feel responsibility for things that aren’t yours to be responsible for. Your fathers views of the world are his and much as they are abhorrent - you are not responsible for changing them.

You are responsible for yourself and your children and it seems to me the best thing you could do for the feminist cause is work in ways of getting away from your mum and dad. You have prioritiesed safety for your children with a roof over their heads and food in their tummies and that is to be commended but I think if you could start to formulate a plan that would get you all out of their house and able to support yourself then that would be fantastic.

I dont mean to minimise the challenges you have and I don’t know your situation but I wish you all the best.

@Katara it's www.coercivecontrol.co.uk

They seem to be running groups and so on.

There're on Twitter - they're hosting Evan Stark at their conference later in the year and yes I have read his book and am across his approach - he says coercive control should be treated as a liberty crime

Are you still with your DH?

You mention your father a lot but how supportive is your DH? Does he 'get you'?

Would going no contact with your parents be an option?

You talk about seeking approval from your parents - we have never encouraged our children (now grown up) to seek approval from us - ever.

Guidance - yes
Support and encouragement - yes
Advice even if we are old gimmers now - yes

Approval or validation - never ever

You seem to have had a bit of an awakening recently - I don't think however that you need to worry about 'joining the fight' so to speak. Concentrate on yourself for now.

Spend some time thinking about the person you really want to be, the life you want to live.

Identify the people in your life who would attempt to undermine or sabotage that and look at ways in which you can protect yourself from that toxicity so that you can breathe and move on.

Somehow i have to bring my girls up to not be afraid of being themselves in a society which doesn't like girls being themselves while I've been socialized to not be myself.
It's a huge trap.

Your post really resonates for me too, OP. I am lucky that my dad and partner are both good, gentle guys, but even so I do fear their disapproval. I fear being seen as a ranting, boring, humourless nag.

And I, too, have daughters. I must toughen up for them - they are little powerhouses and I don't want to turn them into me!

I will follow this thread for ways to get stronger.

I started out twenty years ago, reading a book about assertiveness. It opened my eyes wide to just how much conditioning I was fighting. I read that everyone has a right to an opinion, and they have a right to express that opinion without being demeaned, even if it’s incorrect or doesn’t fit with the aims of the other person.

I hadn’t even realised before that that I had internalised the idea that some other people’s opinions (mainly my [male] superiors at work, who were bullying me) were worth more than mine.

Twenty years on and I’ve recently done another assertiveness course and I’m still learning. I’m out on Twitter and this morning I’m unhappy with things I said last night, but I have re-read them and I won’t delete them. Now I’m reminding myself that I can’t go back, but must learn from my experience and move on. I will probably take a break and regather before I go back into the debate.

One thing I did learn, right back at the start with that book, is just how hard it is to change the dynamic with a bully. I stood up to my bully just once. Then literally an hour later, I handed my notice in because I knew I wasn’t strong enough. It’s the only time in my life I’ve ever handed in my notice without lining up another job first, so it was quite a big deal for me.

I can’t tell you what to do about your dad. That has to be your choice. It’s hard to even imagine how stifling it must be to have grown up with that atmosphere. But my advice would be to take baby steps in a supportive environment. Asssertiveness builds. Small steps taking back control. Listen to your conscience and try to act. When you mess it up (and you will) it isn’t the end. Pick yourself up, give yourself the forgiveness you’d give to others and move on.

Join in when you’re ready. You’ve taken a first step by posting here. Despite your fear, you did it. Build on that and learn to be the version of you that you want to be.

womanformallyknownaswoman please can you post the details of the coercive control charity? And yes to the weight, it is exhausting to carry.

There is a book by someone called Evan Stark called ‘Coercive Control: how men entrap women in their personal lives’

He links the societal inequalities women have faced historically with the ways women are controlled now in their personal lives. While his examples involve battery, his point is that violence is only one aspect of control. It’s all the small things - how you dress, how you act, what you eat, when you sleep - which are got at through negative comments, manipulation, and various strategies the perpetrator knows work, because he knows you.

But it also relies on societal norms of how respectable women are expected to behave. So the two are interlinked.

It was a roasting by anyfucker that started to show me the light.

I'm so sorry op.

No where near what you've experienced but when truth started dawning I went through a process of fear and anger very like the emoticons Tallulah posted.

Give yourself time. Learn. Read. Connect with others. When you feel stronger, perhaps changes can be made.

I think you're very right; many women can't stick their head above the parapet.

Glad that you slept well.
The important thing about change is to want to change. That's the first step. You've done that.
There's lots of inspirational points and advice from posters on this thread.

Change is small steps. Good luck with your first steps.

I get it. I had to live with someone like that. But now I don’t and here I am. Look at the magnificent step you made by making your post. That’s brave. Bravery is being scared and doing it anyway and that’s what you did.

The irony there being that those people are suggesting that white middle class men know more about feminism than white middle class women do. Hmm, I'm spotting some issues with this logic.

THIS highlights so very clearly why its important that as many women as are able are vocal and demonstrative about our rights and our spaces. It pisses me right off to read sneery dismissive pieces about white middle class feminists having no clue about other women. If white MC women are prepared to make a noise about the issues that affect women, then it will help ALL women in the long run. It doesnt matter what race or class you are, we're all WOMEN and this affects everyone.

OP youve made me even more determined to fight this cause. I'm lucky to not have to live with abuse but that doesn't mean I think it doesnt happen. My efforts are on your behalf, so dont worry about not being public yet ❤️

Big hugs and

OP,

I just want to hug you and say I get it - I "feel" you. It's courageous of you to be so honest and yes the title is a bit goady as I expected a troll - so imagine my surprise when I related so much to your post.

I tried to raise this very topic elsewhere recently and got short shrift I felt. Unless has walked the same journey people don't get it. I hate the term internal misogyny as it so victim blames. Mine was laid down at 6 months old by my father's cruelty - that's why guys like him and yours, by the sound of it, shouldn't be allowed anywhere nearly children on their own - they do more harm than good - but I digress.

I imagine what you're shaking from is terror (mine is). I can't control that - I have learnt to live with it. But most of the time it's like dragging a 10 ton weight round - just to front up to these boards takes an enormous amount of effort sometimes - it's also why I rarely confront trolls head-on - because I don't need the extra conflict - I carry it with me all the fucking time inside me. And yes the felt sense of all that hatred towards women. It's like a tsunami.

Sound like you are in family violence dynamics - that really sucks and it's draining and undermining. You know best what you need to do for your safety and that of your children.

So realising I want to claim my place as a woman, but to do so means facing what seems like a David v Goliath battle within myself first, can be overwhelming, in and of itself, often - as I have been conditioned to defer, to freeze when threatened, to be seen and not heard, to be quiet, to cower - never mind the actual external systems of control in place many women have to deal with, for example, where welfare systems have been weaponised against them.

If my experience resonates with you I recommend three things - first do some self care - do something kind for you - a bath, a cuppa, some smelly oils, music whatever feels nice - how would you treat someone else in shock - well do it for you. Secondly, be very gentle with yourself - just getting to where you have got to means you have already climbed a huge mountain - you are seeing the view and it's not what you expected or like. It 's like when I reach the top of the mountain after a very hard slog, only to find it's a false summit. Thirdly, reach out to the DV services and see what they have in terms of groups etc (there's a coercive control charity I can look up the links for - their stuff might help). Also I have found Al Anon helpful even though there was no active addiction in my family, the controlling behaviours are the same. It's free or low cost (gold coin) and there are free phone meetings. I substitute the word abuser or bully or narcissist or psychopath instead of alcoholic - whatever works. Some of the wisdom I hear from other Al-Anon women helped me not take on so much stuff and repair my boundaries. That gives me energy and newfound hope. I take from it what I like and leave the rest - as I don't like all of their approach but I value some the advice from other women.

Just the fact you recognise where you are means you have done 80% of the work - you are at the cusp - you are aware of the control and can see it in your face at every move - you have broken the cycle. Well done. And yes we don't talk about it enough because this is the stuff that stops women - roots them where they are - at the feet of the men. We need to help them more to get out of that place….

Happy to share more if it helps. If not never mind - hugs are free. Be very gentle with yourself xx

"The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off."

It's been a while since Gloria Steinem said that, but it's still true.

Sometimes, saying it out loud and to other people is the bravest thing you could possibly do, OP. I think you're brave.

As others have said, keep reaching out to us. We're always here, fighting our own socialisation by being gobby!

I don't know about everyone else but after I properly saw it first I needed a good long period (weeks, maybe months) kind of like this

😯😮😧😮😨😱😠😡😡😡😡

before I felt like I even knew what to begin to think about it. Take your time

I get what you are saying OP. I think it could be a self esteem issue and perhaps seeking help for that would help.I say that as someone who is in that place myself. I grew up with a controlling father. I have always been a deep thinker strong opinions but no-one would know that on first meeting me. Growing up fearful of my father's reactions meant I learnt to behave in ways that would not upset anyone and my foremost need is to be liked. I can feel like a fraud with regards feminism as I'll happily rant to my lovely DH or close friends who I know share my views but I won't put my opinions in front of acquaintances or strangers.

It's a double whammy to have your esteem crushed by a toxic parent AND to be socialised female. Don't be hard on yourself.

For a long time, I felt xH’s disapproval even though he was not there.

If you imagine a dark, black thundercloud, that was how I saw and feared his wrath.

But then imagine that thundercloud is only one speck in a vast sky. If you shrink the thundercloud and look at the rest of the sky, there is so much space.

Living in the thunder cloud distorts your vision. The best way to bring your DD up to be themselves is to find the courage to be yourself.

You are talking about socialisation and patriarchal power structures. We see them clearly there's just no quick fix. So the responses you are recieving are about finding a way for you.

If you have stood up to your father, and argued the toss many times, where does the fear come from?

It is a genuine question. Because I can easily hold my own with xH, but I still get triggered when I see him. Specifically him, not men in general. I don’t believe all men are controlling bullies, or just waiting to be violent. I do believe that women can be judged by society for not conforming, but that is a different thing.