Justine stands up for FWR in The Times

Actually, I'd also like to thank Justine for reading my Spartacus thread so carefully and engaging properly with what people said. Not many CEOs of big businesses do that - most have a pre-prepared "party line" that they trot out while issuing a "non-apology" apology. Justine is absolutely to be saluted for the amount of careful thought, listening and respectful response she's prepared to make.

Yes, I'd like to thank Justine again (specially since my Spartacus thread may have come across as arsey - it wasn't meant to be, it was prompted by some specific deletions which seemed to row back a bit on the principle of free speech).

But yes, for a woman who has already been on the receiving end of a "swatting" attack to say "you know what, I'm going to knowingly run that risk again in defence of free speech" is amazing.

Justine, you have ovaries of steel!

Thank you Justine.

It IS a personally brave decision. While Justine is fairly confident her employer isn’t going to haul her over hot coals for it () it’s still putting her name out there which opens her to some serious personal abuse. There are some quite unhinged people in the TRA camp - witness the physical assault committed at speakers corner for example.

I don’t think personal attacks in the sense of ‘look at the state of this bloke in a frock’ are very helpful. At the same time it is both possible and I think neccesssary to call out and criticise those who have put themselves in the public eye and are pushing a harmful agenda. Or pushing TRA ideology rather than do the job they were elected to do, for example. That’s a very different thing from abusing a private individual.

The current MNHQ moderation is fine. Anything that’s deemed a personal attack has always been able to be moderated. We don’t need to suddenly all be nicey nicey and be silenced. We just stick to the guidelines that were always there.

And if it makes MNHQ money then im ok with that - because it will be a concrete way of showing business where their core market lies. Which in turn will embolden other companies and organisations to resist pile on type pressure.

@JustineMumsnet
would you mind giving me a PM in the morning? It's important

To come back out and say (metaphorically) fuck it, I'm going to do it anyway, is ruddy marvellous

I agree. I think it is a personally brave decision, and I commend her for it.

I know Jeffrey wasn't anything to do with trans (I was there in real time that night). But it did result in an armed police team turning up on Justine's doorstep - IIRC it was her nanny that bore the brunt of it, not her, but it must still have been distressing for her. And if I were in her shoes, I would have weighed up "Do I want to put myself potentially in a similar vulnerable position by taking on the TRAs?" with the knowledge of what that can actually mean.

To come back out and say (metaphorically) fuck it, I'm going to do it anyway, is ruddy marvellous. And I don't know why you are so het up on painting it as a purely business decision GYMMC, without appearing to appreciate the personal implications of it

Thank you Justine & MNHQ.
Thank you for standing up to the activists and giving women a place to talk. I believe this is really positive publicity for you and your advertisers will be well supported by your members.

She’s stood up publicly and said she’ll allow free speech on here even if there’s a financial hit.

That’s good enough for me, when everywhere else gets shut down.

She’s not taken the easy option and it comes across as rather off to be criticising possible motives as surely it’s the outcome that was needed.

MN doesn't belong to us.

No it isn't owned by us. And whilst it is owned by Justine, it also doesn't belong to her either. Belonging has multiple meanings here.

MN can not exist without its users, and its users are beholden to how well run the site is. It is a symbiotic relationship.

GYMMC, we all know MN is a business but it’s almost as if you have some personal investment in undermining the perception that Justine has done a good thing.

Justine was great in voicing what so many articulate and intelligent MNers have been saying for so long.

If she criticised someone personally like Paris Lees, it would not necessarily work to her advantage, MNs advantage or gender critical arguments advantage.

Something about playing the ball not the player...

An ad homiem attack would play right into trans activists hands. They want 'victims' to act out their fantasy that MN is oppressing them.

If I were Justine I wouldn't do it under any circumstances for that reason. Its the very point of the TGLWGH stuff.

Long live free speech, MN and of course Justine for being brave enough to stand up for both.

I'm sure if Justine had changed her views on PL or had reached 'peak trans' and really supported the movement, she'd state it and take the hit.

She could. She won't. She's a business woman who has made millions out of what was originally a very small idea.

She's making more money now from 'putting her head above the parapet', not less. MN is a multi-million pound business. I know they save money on moderation but I guarantee they have PR and business advisors who analyse MN traffic, threads and posts. MNHQ said when FWR was muted that trans threads have taken the majority of their moderation time. So it's been such a huge issue for so long that they would be daft to not come out in some way as seeming to support the overwhelming number of posts against self - ID.

The attacks from Jeffrygate were abhorrent (and also highlighted the poor protection that MN gave to our data) but had nothing whatsoever to do with trans.

It was an 18 year old with ASD who hacked the site and some twats (possibly MRAs? Probably but we genuinely don't know as no-one was ever charged with the hoax calls) used that data.

I applaud her for her excellent business mind and her success. It is an example for all women.

But she really isn't risking anything. She's said some things that she knows will be appreciated by a vocal number of the people that make her money. I guarantee clicks on MN, deleted adblockers and purchases via MN have been massive the last few days. MNHQ wouldn't take a real risk affecting their income.

I don't blame them either. But I also don't think MNHQ are doing anything other than making money.

MN doesn't belong to us. It's not our safe place. It's a huge anonymous internet forum making a massive amount of money.

We really need a like button!

to Justine and Mumsnet for supporting debate.

If you can't talk about breastfeeding, pregnancy and childbirth, your general experiences as a woman - because it becomes deemed transphobic, what happens to MN?

Yes, this is what I've thought all along. MN can't really afford to cave to this.

MN power comes from women. Not just advertising. It has political influence.

The proposals, if they affect women in the way many here are predicting, therefore have major implications for MN.

If you can't talk about breastfeeding, pregnancy and childbirth, your general experiences as a woman - because it becomes deemed transphobic, what happens to MN?

Whilst this all might be a savvy business decision to make more money, the bottomline is that MN's entire existence could be at threat in the long run if they don't stand up now because of the nature of what people talk about. MN might end up in a situation where all references to mothers are deemed offensive. We might think this ridiculous now, but given the progression and manifestation of this, it would not surprise me either.

You say that Justine is defending users free speech, but actually gender critical posters speaking out in large numbers also protect MN and its business model too. Its mutually beneficial.

Political power comes from users. Even with her family connections, Justine wouldn't get a platform but for MN.

And yes personal beliefs do come into this, and given many posters have said they have only recently seen the inherent problems and conflicts of interests with TRAs, why shouldn't MN HQ also be in the same boat?

I do think that you are minimising the guts it takes to put your head over the parapet on stuff like this.

Yes this. And of course Mumsnet has to make money, it's a business.

Agree Olennas, few people are willing to say what Justine has said and even if it's just for the money it still takes guts in the current climate. And maybe you are right about hitting peak trans, I only hit it after Maria Mac was assaulted, only 7 months ago. There are a lot of women out there like me.

I agree - I'm able to recognise that Justine putting her face and name merely to the concept of free speech places her at considerable risk, so even if this were partly a commercial decision, I can acknowledge this effort from her with my appreciation.

Unless I get banned for misgendering someone first.

(kidding)

Maybe Justine has reflected on things and changed her views? Maybe she's been brought to peak-trans? Maybe she is just sticking to the basic premise of the site in giving women a place to talk about stuff?

Or maybe it's all about the ££££s, but I do think that you are minimising the guts it takes to put your head over the parapet on stuff like this. She has been the subject of doxxing and swatting attacks before, and by taking this stand she is no doubt increasing the chance that MNHQ staff will be subject to the same sort of harassment that forced Millwall and the venue in Bristol to refuse to host meetings.

We can welcome the fact that someone is prepared to do that on our behalf, surely?

And attached are her actual words on the expressing concern about Paris Lees being an invited guest speaker thread.

I struggle with the comments. The idea that some of the frankly awful and anti-women (not even anti-feminist but anti-women!) things that PL said which were linked to on that thread such as this www.vice.com/en_uk/article/zn7b79/enjoying-catcalls-paris-lees-column being dismissed as 'a bit dodgy' and being compared to the comments of female columnists.

They're not the same.

So no, I won't now get misty eyed that MNHQ are making savvy business decisions. I respect those decisions (and they are v.clever) but I don't think it's motivated by feminism or supporting the very few (in comparison to MN as a whole) GC posters.

I made no comment but think as these are Justine's actual words, they are worth repeating.