Slide show on "How to Deal with TERFs"

Thank you UpstartCrow

Your points make sense to me

1. No. They are colonising feminism with patriarchal privilege.

2. No. Feminism is about the liberation of women, not equality for marginalised groups who aren't women.

3. No. Feminism shares this common goal with GNC women - eg lesbians and trans-identified females.

4. No. Males should include affirmative action places on their own lists for GNC males.

BTW - this thread is about a slide show, so your post was a bit derailing. Hope my answers were of interest, but it would be better if we kept to topic. Welcome to Mumsnet!

1. No.
2. Yes. And TRA ideology reinforces gender stereotypes horribly - a boy who likes playing with dolls is just a boy. He is not the opposite sex
3. You’d think wouldn’t you? And historically it’s worked like that. But self ID is a zero sum game, and they are trying to actively remove women’s protections rather than work towards the common goal of reducing Male violence.
4. No. Women’s lists are for women. I’m sure no one would have an issue with a trans proporational allocation but this cannot come out of the women’s ‘budget’

The common theme here is that TWs are saying that they need access to female spaces because they are worried about Male violence. Well so are women, and TWs have exactly the same pattern of offending as men

Hello unassumingwolf

1. No. Men insisting on eroding womens boundaries is the epitome of patriarchy. women have not invited this. All of the reasons we want and need women only spaces and services still exist. None of the problems have been dealt with or removed.

2. Liberal feminism is about equality, we have not achieved equality and the chance is now slipping away.
   Radical feminism states that if society is harmful then we can change the underlying structure to make it fit for humans. Radical feminism isnt about equality, it advocates for autonomy for women. and part of that is being able to name ourselves.
   If we wanted equality we'd be advocating for 2 men a week murdered by women in domestic violence disputes, or equal numbers of men being raped, or men being told that sex work is just work.

3. Feminists advocate for women's rights. Why is it so easy for society to ignore women's rights and safety? There is an underlying, structural inequality.
   We dont have to take on board every single group and issue. It would divert our resources too much to do that.

Trans people are welcome to fight for a third space or service, and we can support that.

4. Trans people should ask for their own rights, spaces and services, and not take them away from women. Men can move over, why should women lose even more?

Yes, because a) they had or have a penis and b) they have benefitted from a life of male conditioning and supremacy within a patriarchal society. You can tell this by the way so many identify as women yet still tell women how to argue, think and what women 'really' feel.
So they are men, despite the feelz.

^^ this in spades

I don't think you really appreciate what it's like to live as a trans woman - the threats of street harassment
Which you have only had since you put on a dress, not since you were 10, and if it becomes physical you have the strength to fight back.

the rejection, the inability to even use the bathroom or have someone you call you by your name?

Yep all common things to happen to women and girls, have look at threads on here where relatives address birthday cards to Mrs Husband's name

The idea that it's simple or easy to ID as a woman to claim positive discrimination is just a lie, and a mean and nasty one at that because it ignores how much these women struggle to be recognised as themselves.

Positive discrimination? Pray tell me where?

The idea that trans women are opportunists trying to take opportunities from cis women is also totally naive

Well you are not taking anything from men are you? And as for the use of 'cis' that is highly offensive and quite sexist, I am a woman, that is how I am legally defined, socially accepted and how I identify. It also links me to women who have fought for my rights, including incarceration, torture and death.

It links me to women in other places who are fighting for rights for women. Malala Yousafzai took a bullet in the head for female education, 12 year olds in Asian countries are sold into prostitution, in Pakistan girls are married to older men and suffer dreadfully through being forced to carry and give birth.

When has a trans woman ever done that for me, for any woman or even for trans women?

It's quite clear you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to how women join these panels etc.

It's quite clear you have no idea why these spaces for women have been carved out of necessity.

Finally, than you for mansplaining.

Hello,

I am new and I have questions.
I definitely consider myself as a feminist.

1. If trans women no longer identify as a man isn't that a powerful message for feminism (they have essentially have essentially relinquished their patriarchal power and privilege) ?

2. As feminism is about equality - does reinforcing gender stereotypes about men and women act to our detriment? The gender system oppresses us all?

3. As feminists are a group in society that have to fight for their voices to be heard, do we not share a common cause with transwomen in representing their rights?

4. If there is an issue with trans women taking the spaces of cis women in women only panels or something, could we not make them proportionately representative of the population? For example on a panel of 10 women, having one spot for a transwoman and 9 for women. would this make things better?

Look forward to learning more and reading your responses.

For me the problem with the whole debate is when it starts from the premise that there is no way that a trans woman can be a woman

Well that is the view of science. I’d go as far as to say it was a fact. Humans cannot change sex. Do you actually believe that humans can change sex? We can have surgery to look like a facsimile of the opposite sex but we cannot change sex.

Do you believe humans can change sex?

I've started a thread about 'femmanist' and her assertion that she has 'friends' working at MNHQ who will shut down the 'transphobic scum'.

I don't think for one second that this is something MNHQ stand for.

But clearly this person claims to have worked for MN for several months and she holds some pretty intolerant views about feminists and uses nasty slurs, so I'm a little concerned about the impartiality of the moderation she claims to be influencing.

Apparently he has form for attacking people, there's video of multiple incidents of him thumping people, in one case on TV.

Vicious man abusing and throwing coffee over a little girl - and so confident in his ability to be immune from the law that he videos himself doing it.
I hope his assumption that he can abuse girls with impunity proves to be wrong.

From his Facebook page, it seems the TIM has been arrested and charged. The responses on the reddit thread echo my thoughts exactly:

Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.

OK so I found the video and this time the TIM didn't hit the female person they were raging at. He did however scare the crap out of her, and throw hot coffee on her. The excuse was that she was taunting him. She looks about 12-14. TIM is 37.

Is this OK with you, Virginia? Is it two women having a conflict with each other? Because what I see is classic male intimidation being aimed at a girl who's right at the age at which older men harassing and intimidating girls is at its worse.

JFC, the Polish TIM. Hard to tell based on the info available, but since dozen is mentioned - was the girl 12? A male in his 30s beating up a 12 year old girl. Lovely.

a debate doesn't start with denying the person you are debating personhood

Oh this reminds me why I hated semiotics. Does this sentence actually mean anything - or is it just word salad? Denying personhood would be calling someone a thing or an animal surly?

APOLOGIES! Am doing three things at once so upthread, I am referring to Eden Ladley (NUS Women's) @gay4plants

I used to use the Voltaire quote “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities” in these discussions to make a point about where this sort of thinking might lead. Now we have the first TRA convicted of assaulting a woman for wanting to discuss women's rights and some so-called communist men publishing a song about assaulting women with bricks in the mouth and kerb stomping them. What the fuck is next?

This is what is next - attacking female children for not being validating.

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/8cyrlg/popular_polish_trans_activist_rafalala_will_be/

I mention Hadley's current concern since as a member of NUT Women's they have both support and (I presume) some influence.
Whilst recognising the importance to confront discrimination and provide services and spaces that are inclusive we have to also recognise that in some situations, prioritising one group may as a consequence exclude others and as those people's experiences and voices are equally important.
It is concerning that so much of the focus of this Women's Officer is to either demonise (as Terfs) or exclude people born female (who identify as trans men).

@VirginiaComet

a debate doesn't start with denying the person you are debating personhood

You make this statement because:

• you are trying to demonise your opponent in the debate by claiming something that is not true - feminists do not deny that trans identified males or females are people.
• a debate normally starts at the foundational point of difference. In this case that is whether a trans identified male is a female or a woman. If you don't start at the foundational point of difference, the debate cannot function. You can't do that though because you have no arguments to support your side of the debate. You need at accept the mantra that "transwomen are women" as an article of faith, not a belief formed following reasoned and critical thought.

It's a shame that as a generational thing, your generation have been asked to accept matters of philosophy and politics (e.g. the nature of womanhood vs the biological state of being female) as unquestionable facts.

I used to use the Voltaire quote “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities” in these discussions to make a point about where this sort of thinking might lead. Now we have the first TRA convicted of assaulting a woman for wanting to discuss women's rights and some so-called communist men publishing a song about assaulting women with bricks in the mouth and kerb stomping them. What the fuck is next?

Thanks to those slides, I've ordered Janice Raymond's book.

Yes I've got it downloaded to my phone as a PDF and have been meaning to read it for ages. I think I'll start it on the commute tonight.

Seems that Hadley (NUS Women's) who identifies as 'non binary transwoman' is currently concerned with excluding those people born female who now identify as trans men from women's spaces....