I am right in thinking the gender pay gap is actually about sex?

What merrymouse says!

I can take on board that

1. Employers hold a limited amount of data on their employees.
2. Practically numbers of people who identify as trans may be so low that their inclusion doesn't impact on the data.

However, I don't believe employers or politicians will take any action to reduce the gender pay gap if they have all drunk the Kool aid and believe it is caused by women sharing some kind of indefinable essence of femininity.

Any inequality faced by women is faced by all women and we need to resolve that. An inclusive work place where every person has the opportunity to perform to the best of their ability and have the opportunity to succeed is the goal.

It sounds as though Monzo think the pay gap is something to do with women not realising their inner fabulousness. Maybe they will have an annual 'girl power' day with free manicures for all the ladies.

TBF, talking about the "sex pay gap" rather implies the discussion is about sex workers

Regardless of their opinion about the politics of self ID etc, from what the bank is saying they don’t have information to identify whether a member of staff is trans?

indeed.

They won't impact the gap though. However they are counted, the gap won't change, as per your original concern. It would take huge numbers to self ID to make enough change to suggest the gap is narrowing.

oh, ok.

I do understand the basics of statistics and am worried about the impact on women, transwomen and transmen of failing to correct sex-specific data.

Well clearly not given some people up thread we're worried about the impact.

I think we all understand that NotBadConsidering....

The gender pay gap issue will not be altered by men identifying as women at either higher or lower paid jobs. Consider Ryanair or any company that has large numbers of lower paid women. When you have large numbers of women employed in lower paid jobs, you need equally large numbers of women in higher paid jobs to bring the mean and median up. A few TIMs will not do this, you need thousands. The boss of Ryanair has the following options to create zero gap:

1. Replace every single higher earning male - pilots, corporate etc - with women, or at least enough to make sure lower paid men such as male cabin crew outnumber higher paid men. This is not likely. Hiring more female pilots wouldn't be enough to bring up the mean and median when balanced out with thousands of lower paid female cabin crew. They'll probably do this for the PR though. If a few male pilots decide to identify as female the impact on mean and median would be negligible.

2. Ask thousands of female cabin crew to identify as male. Male average and median comes straight down. This is not likely, because it's ridiculous.

3. hire large numbers of extra lower paid males to balance out the higher paid males. This is not likely because it would blow out the salary budget and Ryanair pinches pennies at every opportunity.

4. fire half the female cabin crew and replace them with males, with or without adding in some female pilots. This would bring the male mean and median right down and keep the salary budget about the same. This is probably the most attractive option from a pure business sense: no extra money spent but zero gap, look good on the Guardian's graph. Problem with this though is trying to find a load of men willing to be cabin crew. Could be done.

For one the "gender pay gap" is largest for mothers, or even women simply being expected/suspected of possibly becoming mothers.

That is a pretty strong indication it is about sex, isn't it?

The only reason the whole thing is called gender pay gap anyway, is that it was from a time when gender and sex were still seen as the same. And sex pay gap has a bit off an odd ring to it anyway.

Yes, sadly. I started a business years ago but realised I was only interested in the P&L, balance sheet and and cash flow analysis.

I read annual reports and the amount spent on employee compensation and report to boards on the ratios. They come up with obfuscating metrics so it's really good fun to try to find a common basis.

I'm sad. I need to get out more.

People do maths as a hobby?

They do use a control group -

In addition, we draw a one percent sample from the Dutch population, which allows us to compare the earnings of transsexual workers to the earnings of other women and men.

Yes, its pre umbrella data I think, so transsexuals. Love the formulas, but I'm a formula nerd!

I sent it to Miranda who is a maths hobbyist/genius. I will ask for Miranda's learned opinion.

That's me being a hater, caring about the pay penalty. Wondering if we should ask for more analysis. I do care!

From the conclusion

Two consistent earnings findings emerge from the empirical analysis on transsexuals. First, we find that men who become women experience a significant fall in labor earnings after the gender transition. Second, we find that the labor earnings of women who become men hardly change. If there is any change, we find that women who become men earn somewhat more after the gender transition.

The study only includes post-op transsexuals.

Fascinating.

A transgender surgeon in an elite tertiary hospital would do fine after transitioning either way.

A salesperson would suffer far more.

I looks like M2F keep earning more than women and F2M earnings do rise but the authors say not statistically significant.

Yet is right though that the earnings of M2Fs tend to fall and how they fall and then rise again actually seems to reflect that "Being trans also comes with its own shit, self belief systems etc that affect you at work." as Yet said

Ooh, that is very interesting Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen

I wish they'd compared transsexuals earnings to other men and women as well, but this comparison is fascinating. Thanks for linking to it!

I should have said its in Holland, not here.

May I butt in? I found this survey when I was doing some research. I work in equal pay so was interested to see if there was any penalty or gain in line with sex discrimination. Although it is impossible to assign cause completely as people may well change careers as part of the life change they make. This is based on public reported data for earnings.

ftp.iza.org/dp9077.pdf

Absolutely yet. So much work to be done.

Take a graduation year’s worth of male-born students. Measure where they are in 10 years. Then compare the earnings as between trans and not trans.

Do the same with female born graduation year.

We could learn so much.

I wonder what happens to transmen and the effect on pay gaps when they transition?