Please help me clarify my thinking....

I broadly agree with the above too, but I don't think trans is a suitable term in that future GNC society, as it reinforces the idea that there are two sets of stereotypes to transistion between. I'd rather aim for everyone just doing what they want, masculine, feminine, whatever. With the understanding that sex is fixed but it doesn't determine personality.

(Though I guess this approach would be mainly helpful to children, to avoid letting them think they mustn't like diggers as they're for boys, etc. It might not be especially useful to those with gender dysphoria or AGP.)

I think we should all be working on making society more tolerant of difference and stamping out genuine prejudice and discrimination for trans people. But not by saying trans women ARE women in all senses. By saying trans people are living their own lives and should not be discriminated against for making choices outside of the norm. Making ‘trans’ a viable choice in itself, not as a way to be a woman or man whilst ignoring biology entirely.

I agree with this.

@yetanother
I don't know if she's had HRT or surgery.

No, me either. I could assume hormone treatment, but I don’t know. I suppose what I mean is, she’s ‘socially transitioned’ in the way OP says society could support i.e. no need for a medical diagnosis for a GRC, it’s irrelevant to her.

As I understand it, the change of birth certificate etc is to allow trans people not to have to disclose their natal sex to prospective employers etc. where they fear discrimination. Paris is out and proud as a trans woman so doesn’t need that as a coping strategy I suppose.

I think we should all be working on making society more tolerant of difference and stamping out genuine prejudice and discrimination for trans people. But not by saying trans women ARE women in all senses. By saying trans people are living their own lives and should not be discriminated against for making choices outside of the norm. Making ‘trans’ a viable choice in itself, not as a way to be a woman or man whilst ignoring biology entirely.

For those few with dysphoria, who need to be as fully assimilated into their chosen gender as much as possible for their mental wellbeing, a GRC process and surgery to address their body distress would be available still, and have more rigorous medical gate-keeping, as is right for a serious health issue.

But ‘trans’ as self-identified should mean just that - a matter for oneself, not the law.

It’s difficult all round to get a balance right. But the TRA lobby are right in that society needs to change. I’m just not on board with how they’re asking for it to change...

I'm against the idea of sex change completely. It's impossible for a start and you are a liar if you say "I am a woman/man" when you are not one.

So as this as a stating point, gender non-conforming children have my full support in wearing whatever they want, choosing whatever name, playing with whatever toys doing whatever things, expressing themselves but I will never lie to them that they are a different sex and I will never encourage them to believe they could ever be a different sex.

It is child abuse imo to ever give a child hormones or surgery or allow them to think they are of the opposite sex. At the very most they are trans but I would encourage them to simply be a perfect gender non-conforming child in their own body.

Adults, whatever you want. Be a cross dressing Izzard, be an India Willoughby with all the surgery in the world and everything in between once you're old enough to pay for it yourself. But please please be honest with yourself and the world that you are Transgender you are not of the opposite sex. Trans women can be some of the most beautiful interesting incredible people but they are not women. So what's the point of changing your birth certificate, ticking "female" on medical forms etc. Just be yourself.

If gender non conforming people were better accepted in the world, like, they were yknow 20 years ago, then maybe no one would need to lie about sex changes.

Paris Lees, for example, is vocally on record to say she doesn’t have a GRC and can live life fine identifying as a woman. She’s a very successful ‘social transitioner

I don't know if she's had HRT or surgery.

much of the objection on this board is to do with the notion of transitioning without medical involvement (it is just self ID and a legal paperworkprocess).

My personal objection to Self ID is the lack of transparency over what might happen as a process - nothing is confirmed one way or another and I want to be sure women’s rights are considered when that consultation happens, before a law is changed.

For me, the GRC allows an individual to legally ‘change sex’. This is so drastic a life choice, really, that it seems to me that medical opinions should be sought.

Social transition is available already to anyone, in effect. Paris Lees, for example, is vocally on record to say she doesn’t have a GRC and can live life fine identifying as a woman. She’s a very successful ‘social transitioner’.

The issue comes where then the social transition therefore = woman in all senses. For instance Paris Lees is neither legally a woman (no GRC) or biologically a woman but is outspoken on how transphobic it is to suggest trans women are not ‘real’ women. I would always use ‘she/her’ etc in description, but I cannot personally believe biology is irrelevant. But that would make me in need of re-education in the trans narrative.

The difficulty then comes when you are expected to ‘toe the line’ on your thoughts and feelings just because someone has self-identified themselves as something they are not based on just their thoughts and feelings.

In the case of PL, who ‘passes’ extremely well, and has lots of feminisation surgery facially, for example, I’m sure she’s committed and not a threat to women in their sex-segregated spaces. But that doesn’t mean dropping all gate-keeping over quite a serious legal issue won’t have the unintended consequence that other men could abuse the system for less than honourable reasons.

I think finding your tribe as an adult is a necessary step - if that's what you mean by social transitioning. But that goes for everyone. Maybe there just needs to be more directories of "tribes" for people to access - who are genuine folks not people in a "cult"

If social transitioning meant being openly GNC while still accepting that you'll always be the sex you were born as then yes, absolutely! The world would be a better place if everyone felt free to wear what they want, have the hobbies they want, not hide their natural personality, etc.

If it means insisting that you now are the opposite sex because that's how you feel and you may or may not have changed your clothes, hair, etc, then no, because then what you end up with is men who look like men in spaces where women are vulnerable (changing rooms, toilets, etc) and that's uncomfortable and alarming for the women and girls who're already using those spaces.

The idea of a social transition is a bit weird in general, and very sexist. What's changing, exactly? Pronouns, possibly clothes, possibly whether or not someone wears makeup, maybe they might feel more free to express aspects of their personality that they'd been suppressing or pursue interests that they'd been socialized into feeling ashamed of. Why can't they do all of those things without declaring themselves to have a new gender identity? The strictness with which those lines are drawn has increased over the past decade or so, there was more freedom within the living memory of most people here. So isn't loosening up the lines (ideally to beyond even where they were in the 70s and 80s and 90s) and having it be OK for men to wear dresses and lipstick and be emotional, and women to want to be car mechanics and get buzzcuts and wear stompy boots, actually the better way forward? That way only the small minority of people for whom whatever incongruence they're feeling really is about their body and not the stereotypes will even need to consider a medical transition. Everyone else just needs the stereotypes to go away.

If we allowed both sexes to behave how they wanted there would be no ground to trans into, just recognisable sexed bodies and an open world.

Should we not be encouraging adults to experiment by just doing a social transition?

The bit that I personally don't like is saying that man is now a woman or vice versa. Wear what you want, present how you like but don't claim to be someone you are not.

I also think men need to loosen up and wear something other than a defacto uniform. Strict gender rules are not good for anyone.

And yes, if silicon implants float your boat, go for them. But they don't make a woman.

@reluctantcamper

No offence taken. It's just it takes a long time to get to surgery and you really really have to prove yourself to the people involved and get second opinions before you get the ok for surgery.

I've had people think 'it just happens' once you go to the doctors

Wss ^^

I think the point is - no hard and fast rules.

so yes for kids, social transition only because they are not capable of consenting to something as fundamental as SRS.

For adults, the situation is complicated. What ever suits the person in question. I don't even have an issue with AGP individuals taking hormones, growing breasts and retaining their penis. My red line is believing your sex has changed.

I'm with stilettos
I think the whole concept of social transition is odd. Dress how you want. Do what you want. Use whatever name you like. No skin off my nose. Not really a transition.

Medical transition seems to be the accepted and necessary treatment for severe gender dysphoria and I have no problem with that either.

I think that transition should be treated as a medical, not social, issue and we should have gatekeeping to ensure that people are only having damaging treatments such as cross sex hormones (infertility) and SRS (very invasive) as a last resort when there are not other options.

Don't think the current system is that broken TBH

yetanothertranswoman, I'm very aware that I'm talking about something that I have no personal experience of here, and we probably come from rather different view points, I do not wish to offend.

Sounds like social transition alone would have done little/nothing for your dysphoria

For me, no.

But for others - well maybe many people do just socially transition.

To be fair if a man is comfortable with his body then what makes him a woman?

But it should never be a first resort

It takes a very very long time to get surgery. I don't know the statistics and outcomes from people who are referred to a GIC and the eventual outcome when they are discharged. It would make interesting reading - just to see a summary of what eventually happens.

Someone on here said there were about 150 operations in the UK per year. That's very low compared to the referrals.

It would be wonderful for both sexes to be as gender non conforming as they like, that would be great, wonderful even. What is happening though is an eradication of sex based protections. Woman has become meaningless and we are, again, what men tell us we are. This is a board full of women who have said "no" and that surprises and shocks some people. Women aren't supposed to say no, we are supposed to do what others ask us too, accommodate these men who feel sad.

yes, I have thought this. I would never advocate SRS surgery. I do know that for some people it brings peace and for that reason it should be available. But it should never be a first resort.

I'm not sure what I'm saying here tbh. I think I struggle because I fundamentally disagree with the concept of GRCs, so discussions about the gate keeping to get one seem a bit academic.