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Original poster

Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

835 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 07/04/2018 17:37

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

OP posts:
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5
terfing · 11/04/2018 12:10

Does anyone know why my "what's your gender" thread was deleted? I hope I didn't offend anyone! Confused

Teacuphiccup · 11/04/2018 12:10

I’m not on twitter, is there any way we can show support for Hope?

boatyardblues · 11/04/2018 11:38

Hope Pink is fab. That is all. Flowers

athingthateveryoneneeds · 11/04/2018 11:32

@SirVixofVixHall I do as well. Hoping to organise some street protests in the future and he's promised to come help.

SirVixofVixHall · 11/04/2018 10:57

Hope Pink is an amazing person, absolutely honest and kind hearted. I follow Hope on Twitter.

LangCleg · 11/04/2018 10:56

We take young people seriously in that we care about their feelings and want them to be happy, while at the same time realizing that adolescence is turbulent and all about trying to figure out who you are, while your brain isn't finished developing yet.

Yes. We understand that adolescence is a period of turbulent identity formation. And we also understand that adolescent girls in particular often go through a period of intense body hatred as a reaction to the demands an aggressively patriarchal and sexualised adult society is putting on them. That's why many feminists see a link between anorexia/bulimia, self-harm and trans identities in adolescent girls.

Italiangreyhound · 11/04/2018 10:51

Yes. AngryAttackKittens that is so true. That's what I meant. We don't take them literally that they are boys but we do take them seriously as important, special values people.

Italiangreyhound · 11/04/2018 10:49

Hope Pink. Wow. Fabulous.

AngryAttackKittens · 11/04/2018 10:43

We take young people seriously in that we care about their feelings and want them to be happy, while at the same time realizing that adolescence is turbulent and all about trying to figure out who you are, while your brain isn't finished developing yet.

Italiangreyhound · 11/04/2018 10:41

@FeministBadger "Significantly this is the same demographic who previously experienced high levels of anorexia which is now less prevalent."

Listening to a young woman with dysphora describe not liking her growing chest does sound very like anorexia. As far as I am aware. Although I do not know enough about this. I had a friend with anorexia, I do not know enough generally but I have a different kind of eating disorder linked to OCD. I think maybe there are many contributing factors, ASD, anxiety, etc.

I don't know why the 'trans community' (if such a thing exists) would wish to automatically claim all these young women.

One purpose of going through the process to get the GRC (as adults) is it helps to work out medically what is going on.

Just as young people cannot get married or vote we know they cannot always make logical decisions with long reaching consequences. I would say this was even more true in terms of 'decisions' about themselves!

Which of us ended up doing the job we wantrd to do at 12 or marrying the person we wanted to marry at 14!

I wanted to be a nursery nurse at 12 and to marry Donny Osmond at 14. Dear reader, it will not surprise you to known, neither came to be!

Does that mean we do not take young girls seriously? No, it does not. We do take young people seriously. However, we cannot assume all the mixed up, body-hating young girls are really boys, even if they themselves feel this at this moment.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 11/04/2018 10:40

As have we.

R0wantrees · 11/04/2018 10:38

& for those who don't use twitter or are new to this, Hope Pink has had the most extreme targeted attacks on him by some TRAs (just as Miranda has)

Juells · 11/04/2018 10:32

I worry that some day I'll hear from a bloke I knew back then

Sigh. I remember in the nineties dreading that I'd run into someone I used to like and he'd have a ponytail. The ante has been upped.

Teacuphiccup · 11/04/2018 10:31

Aw Hope! I had a little cry reading that. What a lovely lovely person.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 11/04/2018 10:25

Hope Pink

I was following Hope on Twitter, and so I thought I would share this, I think this is an amazing decision. Hope is no longer going to self ID as a woman. Not because Hope is changing the way Hope lives, but has reconciled with being male.

smashinggenderchange.wordpress.com/2018/04/06/dropping-the-id-of-trans-to-protect-women-their-biological-identity/

AngryAttackKittens · 11/04/2018 10:18

Ah but back in the day men in skirts were just men in skirts.

I worry that some day I'll hear from a bloke I knew back then who I haven't spoken to for a while, and he'll be taking estrogen and being pushy about demanding access to women's changing rooms, and then we'll have to have a big fight. Hopefully not, they all seemed sensible enough at the time, but you never know.

Italiangreyhound · 11/04/2018 10:18

@yetanothertranswoman I greatly appreciate your involvement and participation here. I am sure that a small minority of people are 'coming out' because this is high profile and they realise they are not alone. However, you and others managed to find your way to clinics and services that will help transsexuals people.

So I must agree with @flowersonthepiano that there is something more going on here than people just becoming aware of something that is true for them.

I agree with @Beyond11cisRetinol

"I do believe that trans is the new goth amongst groups of teenagers. After all, goths were not known for their gender-conformity"

I am seeing this with my own eyes and hearing about it. I know of at least four girjs who are gender non-confirming to the state where they may identify as boys or where others may identify then as boys. I know of others who are connected to friends (e.g. not personally known to me). I expect others know even more. Are these numbers 'normal' or is social contagion coming into play with ROGD.

Original poster
womanformallyknownaswoman · 11/04/2018 10:15

@R0wantrees

This for me is key... children and young people deserve a nuanced and sophisticated support & to not have legislation and policy made by single-interest lobbyists.

My turn to say eloquently put :)

OP posts:
Original poster
womanformallyknownaswoman · 11/04/2018 10:13

@FeministBadger

Significantly this is the same demographic who previously experienced high levels of anorexia which is now less prevalent.

There was a research report recently posted I think by @flowersonthepiano or perhaps yourself, that had some very interesting to say about men brains plus also, I believe, a section on chemical imbalance in the same part of the brain as anorexics. I may have got all this all wrong btw and I am wary of posting anything about male and female brains as I know it's not true and doesn't account for conditioning.

Can anyone summarise that report in plain english for me please plus the section about anorexics and the differences in that brain area that they have found in men?

OP posts:
Original poster
womanformallyknownaswoman · 11/04/2018 09:59

"Bullying is a compulsive need to displace aggression and is achieved by the expression of inadequacy (social, personal, interpersonal, behavioural, professional) by projection of that inadequacy onto others through control and subjugation (criticism, exclusion, isolation etc). Bullying is sustained by abdication of responsibility (denial, counter-accusation, pretence of victimhood) and perpetuated by a climate of fear, ignorance, indifference, silence, denial, disbelief, deception, evasion of accountability, tolerance and reward (eg promotion) for the bully."

What is bullying?
• constant nit-picking, fault-finding and criticism of a trivial nature - the triviality, regularity and frequency betray bullying; often there is a grain of truth (but only a grain) in the criticism to fool you into believing the criticism has validity, which it does not; often, the criticism is based on distortion, misrepresentation or fabrication
• simultaneous with the criticism, a constant refusal to acknowledge you and your contributions and achievements or to recognise your existence and value
• constant attempts to undermine you and your position, status, worth, value and potential
• where you are in a group (eg at work), being singled out and treated differently; for instance, everyone else can get away with murder but the moment you put a foot wrong - however trivial - action is taken against you

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 11/04/2018 09:58

This for me is key... children and young people deserve a nuanced and sophisticated support & to not have legislation and policy made by single-interest lobbyists.

FeministBadger · 11/04/2018 09:30

yetanother I believe that the increased acceptance may account for some of the increase in trans identifying people but the massive surge in teenage girls in particular is too concentrated in one demographic for this to be the case.

Significantly this is the same demographic who previously experienced high levels of anorexia which is now less prevalent.

LangCleg · 11/04/2018 08:54

It isn't really that productive to just copy and paste articles and bits of guidance randomly without participating in a discussion about what you've shared and why, or engaging with feedback. I'm not sure what the purpose is?

It is being said elsewhere that FWR is where terfs groom and radicalise hapless mums (because being women, presumably, they are unable to make up their own minds) into evil terfery, and that attempts at re-education should be made. I think some new joiners have this impression and are therefore posting positive content about trans people even though it has no relevance to feminism or impact on women and girls. They haven't yet understood that this forum talks about trans issues in the context of any negative impact on women and girls. Outside of potential negative impact on women and girls via the political demands of activists, everyone here wishes all trans people a happy and fulfilled life. Not sure this distinction is widely understood!

Do you have any comments to make on women's and girls' rights?

Exactly. See above!

GoodyMog · 11/04/2018 08:44

"After all, goths were not known for their gender-conformity"

Ah but back in the day men in skirts were just men in skirts.

Beyond11cisRetinol · 11/04/2018 08:38

I do believe that trans is the new goth amongst groups of teenagers. After all, goths were not known for their gender-conformity Grin

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