Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

Sue0001

Yes, I completely agree than AGP in transsexuals is not a pattern. It is a pattern found in males. It is the most common paraphilia found in sex offenders.

AGP males are considered to be Transgender according to Stonewall.

Transsexuals are generally accepted by the feminist community as welcome into female spaces in certain situations.

AGP males are completely different and we do not want them to be considered female for obvious reasons.

So Sue, you’re saying that AGP doesn’t exist, apart from in natal females?

Cheers lang I re-read and am off for a cuppa

We've moved on from today's 'women have agp' nonsense trope. If you really want to talk Sue, let's talk. As in, you raise points, we respond, we raise points, you respond. If all you can do is paste today's party line, we're all wasting our time.

.... aaaaand, let's get back on topic! I'd recommend everyone - including me! - re-read paragraph three of the OP.

The point is, a predatory man would not need to go through the process of self-ID at all. If the law changes, or societal norms change, so that it becomes an everyday occurrence that trans people who don't physically transition are accepted in single sex spaces, then non-trans men will be able to pose as women unchallenged. Regardless of their motivation. Yes, there would potentially be legal redress if they did something unlawful, but regardless of that you have already lost your single sex space and there is no point in its existence any more. What do you think single sex spaces are for Sue?

I think before you use AGP as an argument you need to be aware AGP theory for MtF transsexuals has been discredited and that AGP exists in Women to! In fact the survey below says 28% of Women would have AGP.

Blanchard's Autogynephilia Theory: A Critique

Article (PDF Available)  in Journal of Homosexuality 57(6):790-809 · June 2010 with 183 Reads
DOI: 10.1080/00918369.2010.486241 · Source: PubMed
Cite this publication
Charles Moser at Diverse Sexualities Research and Education Institute
Charles Moser
30.4Diverse Sexualities Research and Education Institute
Abstract
Over the last 20 years, Ray Blanchard, Ph.D., with a variety of coauthors and collaborators, has proposed a theory that links the sexual orientation of male-to-female transsexuals with the presence or absence of autogynephilia (erotic arousal by the thought or image of "himself" as a woman). Blanchard's Autogynephilia Theory suggests that the association between sexual orientation and autogynephilia among male-to-female transsexuals is clinically important and the association is always (or almost always) present. Although the theory has been criticized by clinicians, researchers, and transsexuals themselves, it has not been critiqued in a peer-reviewed article previously. This article will attempt to fill that gap. Key studies on which the theory is based will be analyzed and alternative interpretations of the data presented. I conclude that although autogynephilia exists, the theory is flawed.

February 2009 · Journal of Homosexuality
Autogynephilia, an erotic interest in the thought or image of oneself as a woman, has been described as a sexual interest of some male-to-female transsexuals (MTFs); the term has not been applied to natal women. To test the possibility that natal women also experience autogynephilia, an Autogynephilia Scale for Women (ASW) was created from items used to categorize MTFs as autogynephilic in other studies. A questionnaire that included the ASW was distributed to a sample of 51 professional women employed at an urban hospital; 29 completed questionnaires were returned for analysis. By the common definition of ever having erotic arousal to the thought or image of oneself as a woman, 93% of the respondents would be classified as autogynephilic. Using a more rigorous definition of "frequent" arousal to multiple items, 28% would be classified as autogynephilic. The implications of these findings are discussed concerning the sexuality of women and the meaning of autogynephilia for MTFs.

A man can put a dress on and walk into a woman’s space today. He would not be covered by the protections of the Equalities Act

Sue0001
Have you actually seen the EA2010?

I wholly reject the proposition put forward that a man would self declare as a woman at risk of perjury with two years in jail to dress up to go in a woman’s space.

I admire your optimism but there comes a point where it becomes dangerous naivety.

if he misbehaved there are already laws in place to protect or deter such action occurring

There are laws in place to protect people from car theft and deter such action occurring. Are you going to leave your car unlocked and vulnerable though? Or will the police or insurers have much sympathy with you if you do?

What you seem to mean by 'let's talk' is that women should shut up and do what they are told, and may not have any feelings about it. Their privacy and dignity is something they are not entitled to. Their own spaces are not something they are entitled to.

I wholly reject the proposition put forward that a man would self declare as a woman at risk of perjury with two years in jail to dress up to go in a woman’s space.

I’ve said it countless times but remember that many men have spent years training and working as teachers, priests, youth workers, radio DJs and Scout leaders just to access vulnerable children and women.

Why wouldn’t they put a dress on at the risk of 2 years in prison? Going to prison doesn’t put them off anything else.

Sue I assume that you mean 'let's talk'. Funny thing to say on the day when we have been stopped from talking.
I think you mean that women should allow people to talk at them.

@Sue0001
"Self-declaration with suitable checks and balances would make zero difference to the current position described above."

I don't believe you. I also think there will most likely be no checks and balances. I also think even the idea of self Id has altered how society thinks and maybe even led to Girl Guides not being an organisation for the female sex.

"I wholly reject the proposition put forward that a man would self declare as a woman at risk of perjury with two years in jail to dress up to go in a woman’s space"

I wholly disagree with you and actually it's not totally even the point. Men will not need to 'transition' or even need to self id, thet will just use our spaces of they want to.

So women will be so cowed by this utter bullshit that they will never dare challenge a man in their spaces. They will either put up with it, or use the disability access loos, or simply use public spaces less often.

I wholly reject the proposition put forward that a man would self declare as a woman at risk of perjury with two years in jail to dress up to go in a woman’s space.

But why would he need to self declare? Because you couldn't ask him if he had self declared. He would just be there, taking predatory advantage, with all the males who had self declared.

Regardless of this, what if I, a woman, don't consent to males in my spaces, self declared or not? What if the majority of women, once faced with the realities of self-ID, decide they don't consent either.

What then?

I wholly reject the proposition put forward that a man would self declare as a woman at risk of perjury with two years in jail to dress up to go in a woman’s space.

But the Labour Party are saying any man can self id as a woman and be on all women’s shortlists.
The don’t even have to declare anything, just say ‘I’m a woman’. It’s not just self id in law but self id in our culture too. Labour is already ‘ahead of the law’.

So many things keep getting conflated in the discussions. Erasure of women’s or trans people’s identities is just wrong. The feminist struggle for gender equality and equity of gender opportunity for all should be wholly embraced by society. Women and trans folk fight on the same side to achieve that.

A man can put a dress on and walk into a woman’s space today. He would not be covered by the protections of the Equalities Act. What he might wear is not a crime but if he misbehaved there are already laws in place to protect or deter such action occurring.

Self-declaration with suitable checks and balances would make zero difference to the current position described above.

I wholly reject the proposition put forward that a man would self declare as a woman at risk of perjury with two years in jail to dress up to go in a woman’s space.

I wholly support that all women and children should be protected from predatory abusive people.

‘Let’s talk’ indeed. There is a lot of talking going on. But not much listening.

Last sentence should read “Let’s Talk”. Predictive text got the better of me

@merrymouse

"Genuine question - How relevant is AGP to the discussion anyway?"

I's say hugely relevant when you want to explain that some males fetishize being 'female'. Massively offputting but be careful, arguing about them identifying as lesbians will get some LGBT people upset because they conflate genuine lesbians with trans lesbians!

In another sense I think AGP is not relevant. These people still have rights to all normal protections, to dress as they choose etc.

But like all male people they are not female. I think their inclusion under 'the trans umbrella' does harm to transsexuals but in some ways strengthens our cause as women.

So, Personally I think it is best to be honest, AGP is harmful to women but it is not the only reason that males are not females or that females and males deserve their own spaces for intimate things (changing/toilets), potentially dangerous situations as thrrse are (along with prison/hospital/hostel) and of course refuge and rape crisis and the right to meet to discuss our oppression without males present.

I don't want to undress in front of my father-in-law, brother-in:law, adult nephews, my male boss, male colleagues or male neighbours. None have AGP but I still don't expect to share intimate spaces with males.

Sue, what happens now with proper safeguards is not so much the problem.

It is the hundreds of thousands of people who say they are trans but are currently unwilling to follow the rules to get a GRC.

Suspicion about some of them is inevitable because the major thing that trans people want removing is assessment by psychologists, psychiatrists and endocrinologists on the grounds it is 'not necessary' if you are just socially transitioning.

As you will still need those checks if you are physically transitioning.

So the problem here is not the ones who will go through gatekeeping because of the need to see doctors.

It is the ones who do not want to, because in those cases at best it is just a self expression and a bit of full time cross dressing and at worst they may have some kind of paraphilia that gets undiscovered.

The former should always get a GRC. The latter, in my view, should not without going through the checks and balances for their own sake and the rest of us being asked to legalise their status.

It is really that simple.

I always just assumed they were transvestites.

It was the same in the 80s, Jaycee. Nobody would have dreamed of seeing the TSs as the same as the TVs... including the TSs and the TVs themselves! This is what has changed.

Are you aware that any transitioning person after about three months on hormones is either infertile in the case of a trans man or with testosterone blockers a trans woman is chemically castrated

Yes. Assuming we all know this.

But there are a huge number of male people claiming to be women just by self-identification alone.
No hormones.
No surgery.
No changing of presentation whatsoever.

These people from the Goldsmith school of postmodernism don't care about taking hormones or transitioning in the traditional sense at all.

Woman means something.

It made a difference to me, too, when I discovered it and I am trans.

I had never heard of this AGP thing until a year or so ago and struggled to understand it when someone first described it in a post.

How could someone who felt male, fancied women, but loved dressing up and getting sexually aroused as a result actually want to remove the very thing that got them aroused.

As I recall we were told that the effects of transition could easily be a decrease in sex drive and surgery then was quite hit and miss and often went wrong. So I would have thought that anyone with AGP would run a mile from physically transitioning unless they were seeking a cure maybe.

I then read some of the stuff about it and understood a bit better and soon realised that in the various clinics I had attended in the 70s I had probably met a couple of these people.

They used to spend their evenings and weekends in bars and on the town in flamboyant clothes and bragged about it a lot. They had a huge wardrobe and were always telling me about. They did this as recreation I felt and it seemed to me to be a 'relaxation' to them, but afterwards they said they needed to go back to being male for a bit until ready for another fix.

It reminded me of a girl who I made friends with in the psych unit as she was regularly going out on town getting blotto and had a bit of a drugs problem and she went in and out of highs and depressions too.

Neither of the two who were at the clinic transitioned as far as I know. One was persuaded out of it and had some electro therapy. The other changed his mind twice whilst there and that red flag was enough for the doctors.

He wrote to me for a while afterwards and carried on secretly cross dressing and got a girlfriend - after which I hope he stopped, but I have no idea as I stopped answering his letters.

I always just assumed they were transvestites.

Let's take

The ability to define the word woman

Your ability to meet and talk

Your ability to discuss how changes to the way you're defined affect women and girls

Your right to object to your daughter sharing overnight accommodation with someone of the opposite sex

It's got the makings of a good campaign slogan...

Sue, that’s as maybe but it still means that women and girls are left in a situation where they feel that they can’t challenge someone who they feel shouldn’t be in a female safe space and where groups like Swim England are saying that people can use the changing rooms they feel like.

WAWAG?